Compulsory vs Optional results

[rsm]

I will preface my post by saying that my DD is very little and about to join level 4 team, so I have very little experience in the gymnastics world.

I was looking at the States meet results and found that for DD's gym... the teams at the compulsory levels 4 - 6 did pretty well, placing either 3rd, 4th and 5th. But the teams at the optional levels 8 - 10 were all State champions. I will say that the girls in the compulsory levels are on the younger side, but not sure if that makes a difference in scoring.

And most of the other gyms that had very, very good teams at levels 3 and 4, dropped off a little for team placement in levels 5 and 6, and even more for optionals... in some cases some gyms didn't even seem to have an Optional team(s).

I haven't seen results from previous states meets. But if you were looking at the strengths of a gym and possibly getting to higher levels, is it more appropriate to look at compulsory results or optional results as one measure for comparison? And do looking at the scores tell you anything else about the gym?

I'm not thinking of changing gyms or anything. DD seems quite happy where she is and is progressing quite nicely. I was just looking at the results and wondering what, if anything, to make from them. DD competed against some girls in level 3 who were so much more polished in their form and performance, and I'm sure will compete against them again in level 4, so it would be interesting to see what the gap is like next year.

 

[skschlag]

Scores tell you a little. They tell you how kids did that year. But it could be that they had a bunch of first year level 5s, and so the scores were down a bit. It could be that they worry more about basics and polish than routines at the compulsary levels. They could be moving to get kiddos to optionals faster. I think it is more about how the gym feels, how your dd is doing, etc. I think scores can give you one picture of a gym, but since scores are so dependant on so many variables, they should be a small part of what you are looking at.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

My DD's gym sounds similar to your DD's. There are a lot of gym around here that can produce good Level 3-6's-- less that can produce good 7-10's. Don't worry so much about the scores in the lower levels IMO-- if the gym produces strong Optionals your gym has good coaches.

 

[iwannacoach]

^^^^^^agreed, it's a very good thing if you look toward the horizon

 

[gymdog]

Winning at the compulsory levels can be a combo of things - extra hours, access to judges and a lot of knowledge about the routines as an example. It doesn't take as much specialized technical knowledge, physical prep, or injury prevention. On the other hand you could have a great coach who doesn't have the compulsory routine specialized knowledge but great technical knowledge. They might produce competent gymnasts who do "pretty well" at compulsories due to their overall technical abilities, and optionals who do "really well" because they followed a progression with that as their ultimate goal, sacrificing nothing to gain a few tenths in the early years.

That's not to say coaching compulsories takes none of that specialized knowledge - and in another way it has its own specialty..but I think it is more accessible.

For example my coach encouraged us in level 6 to do cast handstand on the high bar, even if we sometimes went over the bar (i.e. had a fall). If we did the cast to the angle prescribed, then for sure we would not have a fall, but her goal was to get confidence in hitting a cast handstand at a meet, even if it meant risking a fall in the earlier years and not winning level 6. The level 7+ bar results were always excellent, and level 6 wasn't bad either.

Also, I've had coaches who were new to the country but coached at the international level in their home countries. They could teach any skill but often lacked knowledge and background of the US compulsory level routines. Without all the background of what to look for, how strictly the text is followed, what the major elements are, it is a lot to learn over time. They might decide it gets in the way of their progressions or isn't their priority. In other systems, kids don't compete as young or at levels as low as is common in the US. So, a coach with a different perspective on it might see kids with optional potential and decide to prioritize that, rather than risking overtraining in compulsories.

 

[wallinbl]

Sounds like the gym is pretty good, then. DD's gym does well at compulsory levels, but not at optional levels, where they have few gymnasts. The good optionals all seem to leave for other gyms. Not sure what that is.

 

[AmandaLynn]

As the others have already mentioned, a strong optional program is a good thing, especially if your daughter is in it for the long haul.

I think that a lot (NOT ALL, but a lot...) of the gyms that have great compulsory results but struggle with getting kids to optionals tend to have their lower level kids in the gym too many hours and burn them out before they can ever get to optionals.

 

[curlymomof3]

What if the compulsory levels do horrible and the optional girls are awesome? Is it worth taking the risk to switch and hope that the same coaches are there once your child gets to the optional level (if she ever gets there)? Would love opinions on this!! Dd has an amazing level 3/4 coach but the optional coach just left and all her team girls followed her!!

 

[GymBee97]

Scores really don't mean a whole lot - a judge has a bad day and bam a bunch of bad scores. IF you are going to look as scoreish stuff then I look more a placement - are they consistantly placing in 5th for example (regardless of score). for me though its really isn't about any scores or placements I go with is my daughter happy where she is, what she is doing and happy with her own results and improvement in skills if she is then I really don't care what she gets for a score or placement.

Keep in mind too that at the compulsory levels there are just soooooo many competing. When they hit L6 and L7 the gymnasts start to drop like flies so there arent as many gymnasts competing. So for the optional levels for example you might only have 30 gymnasts total that qualify for states for example ages 8 - 11 at L7 in my state was one group with only 20 kids qualifying, at L4 all the ages from 8 - 11 were split up with over 120 kids qualifying. Its easier to make it to a top position if there are only a few kids as opposed to hundreds of kids at the same level. Now that is just one level with a small age group. at L5 and L6 they have just as many kids at L4. And keep in mind too to make it to 2nd place at L9 in YOUR AGE GROUP could mean there were only 2 in your age group so yes you are 2nd all around but technically you came in last because there were only 2 in your age group.
When my DD was a L4 there were 22 kids just on her L4 team as an optional now there are a total of 7 girls on the optional team - I know of 1 level 7, 2 L8, 1 L9 and 1 L10 the other 3 are either L8 or moving to L9. Out of her L4 team (at old gym) only 2 others are still competing from my DD's original L4 team and I think one of them is quiting this year.

The other thing is I have found too once a girl and their family hit optionals they are definitly more serious about their gymnastics. The ones that arent usually will drop at the end of L6 or L7. those still there at L8 or a second year of L7 are the few that will continue on to compete.

 

[iwannacoach]

What if the compulsory levels do horrible and the optional girls are awesome? Is it worth taking the risk to switch and hope that the same coaches are there once your child gets to the optional level (if she ever gets there)? Would love opinions on this!! Dd has an amazing level 3/4 coach but the optional coach just left and all her team girls followed her!!

Switching to a gym that excells at optionals, if that's your child's ambition, is a good move to make. There is always the possibility of a change-over in the coaching staff, but that can happen to any gym at any time. One thing that usually stays consistent is the owner's philosophy and business model, and while that too can change, it's more likely that it won't. If the program you're dd is currently in has a 2 year or longer history of struggling at the optional level, it will probably remain that way until long after your dd gets to the optional level. You don't have to "follow" the coach, but where ever the coach ended up is probably a program with a greater commitment to the optional level.

 

[kimskids]

I personally think a gym who does fairly well in both compulsories and optionals. Not saying every kid has to get 1st place AA but if every kid is scoring very poorly that is not good either. Having strong basics is very important I think and will make the higher levels easier if they are very solid in them.

 

[rsm]

Winning at the compulsory levels can be a combo of things - extra hours, access to judges and a lot of knowledge about the routines as an example. It doesn't take as much specialized technical knowledge, physical prep, or injury prevention. On the other hand you could have a great coach who doesn't have the compulsory routine specialized knowledge but great technical knowledge. They might produce competent gymnasts who do "pretty well" at compulsories due to their overall technical abilities, and optionals who do "really well" because they followed a progression with that as their ultimate goal, sacrificing nothing to gain a few tenths in the early years.

That's not to say coaching compulsories takes none of that specialized knowledge - and in another way it has its own specialty..but I think it is more accessible.

For example my coach encouraged us in level 6 to do cast handstand on the high bar, even if we sometimes went over the bar (i.e. had a fall). If we did the cast to the angle prescribed, then for sure we would not have a fall, but her goal was to get confidence in hitting a cast handstand at a meet, even if it meant risking a fall in the earlier years and not winning level 6. The level 7+ bar results were always excellent, and level 6 wasn't bad either.

Also, I've had coaches who were new to the country but coached at the international level in their home countries. They could teach any skill but often lacked knowledge and background of the US compulsory level routines. Without all the background of what to look for, how strictly the text is followed, what the major elements are, it is a lot to learn over time. They might decide it gets in the way of their progressions or isn't their priority. In other systems, kids don't compete as young or at levels as low as is common in the US. So, a coach with a different perspective on it might see kids with optional potential and decide to prioritize that, rather than risking overtraining in compulsories.

Thank you... This is a good perspective for me. The girls doing L3 at DDs gym were training only 4 hrs a week and the coaches were just learning the L3 routines because they never competed at that level before. And for L4 they practice 2 hrs x 4 days a week, so they end up spending a lot of time stretching and conditioning and less time on practicing actual routines. I think DDs gym certainly has their eye on the long term for these girls which is great.

 

[rsm]

Sounds like the gym is pretty good, then. DD's gym does well at compulsory levels, but not at optional levels, where they have few gymnasts. The good optionals all seem to leave for other gyms. Not sure what that is.

Yes. Her gym is very good all the way to the elite level. I was just interested in the disconnect at the lower levels, but gymdog had some interesting ideas of why that might be the case.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

curiosity killed the cat...

 

[rsm]

curiosity killed the cat...

But satisfaction brought it back

 

[bribri514]

I agree with a lot of what everyone has said. Growing up my gym was the only one in the entire area so there was really no comparing programs. We were a small gym in a fairly rural area run by the town's rec district. Despite this we did fairly well for our size. Compared to most gyms our compulsory teams were tiny, about 10 girls per level. We had girls place at state though regularly. By optionals there were about 10 girls L7-10 maximum and I was the only L 10 for most of my gym career, except for my first year where a high school girl was and she placed top 3 at state and went on to do club college gymnastics. I was in 6th grade that first year, so much younger, but despite everyone's age differences we all got along really well.

My niece's gym is one of the gyms with an emphasis on their compulsory programs. There's not really much past L 7 and some girls who do various levels of Prep-Op. It's a YMCA gym with a JO program. The coaching staff is very wonderful with all the girls. There's no ex Olympic champs or the country's best technical coaches, but they are all wonderful with kids and great teachers, really focusing on the girls growing as gymnasts and as people. Our gym hours are on the lower side of average for our area and the gym isn't the biggest state of the art facility, but it's safe and works well for the program right now. We chose this gym though because my niece just started competing this past season at age 9. She had done years of gymnastics through the city rec programs but never organized competition. For our family's financial and logistical situation (my brother is a single dad and I am a full time student who also works), it made sense to start small. And even though I have a background in gym, started at age 3, went through L 10 and began to train for elite (but had to stop) and was part of a DI college team, I didn't want to push my niece too fast too quick. I know what a positive thing my gym was for me, because of the lack of pressure I was able to claim gymnastics as my own and really develop my own passion for it. I think that is a good environment for my niece. She loves gymnastics now even more if possible than she did when she started team last summer. We might move on to a private club gym in the next few years if my niece still is progressing at the rate she is and loving the sport and wanting to be more competitive, she wouldn't really be able to compete JO past 7 with the coaching staff, just because of technical issues and the way the program is set. I'll be sad if/when that day comes. We could have had her start at a gym with a strong optional program, I know how that's usually the best indicator of a gym's strength, but we dipped our toes in the water to test it out instead of jumping in as far as my niece's gymnastics experience. We're really glad we did but obviously there's different situations for everyone!