Help with understanding scoring...

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Beetle had her level 9 state meet this past weekend. She would like help understanding the scoring on her beam and bar routine. (She asked me to post her video)

1st Bars - I can see the obvious deductions, not quite Handstand, Step on dismount, turing the pirouette a little late, Tapping feet on shootover. The tap after her Shoot over I know that can be upto .5 of a deduction. Could someone help explain where some of the other larger deductions came from? She has asked her coach why her scoring is low (highest score all year is a 8.35) and he just tells her its "sloppy". A friend of mine said her daughter was getting .3 on each kip because they were not 'extended' I don't know how to tell if a kip is extended. She scored a 7.85 on the routine below.

YouTube - State Bars

2nd - Beam. I know she doesn't have a flight series and that is .5 deduction from the start value. Her start value should be a 9.4 if she hits her two switch leap/jump connections. One judge gave her a 9.4 SV the other only gave her a 8.9 Start Value on her routine.

She asked her coach why and he didn't know. She asked her coach to ask the judge and he said no. He said it wouldn't do any good to argue with the judge. She just wanted to know what she was missing. (Which I dont think is too much to ask). She scored a 7.3 on the routine below.

YouTube - M4H02835

I want to make it clear that I am not in anyway disappointed my Daughter! I am proud of everything she has accomplished this year. I am just trying to get help so she can understand her scoring. She is very frustrated, she works very hard (as do all our girls) and asks her coach for specific feedback but he only gives her general things like "don't be sloppy" or "You need a flight series". Any suggestions or help is greatly appreciated.
 
I'm not a judge so I could be completely wrong, but I wouldn't consider either of her jumps connected.
 
I think she did great! Her bars look very nice. Does she have a 10.0 start value? Our L9's do a double back dismount and the shoot over comes from a giant?
Beam looks good. The connection will help the score a lot, jumps look a bit slow. Sorry I can't be more help. DD is only L8, I don't know the ins and outs of L9. Just wanted to say good job.
 
*Not a judge* Just going by the corrections I see our level 9's get and by watching meets. Her bars are loose, she is arched in her handstands and giants, while she is supposed to be hollow, her feet look flexed quite often, and you need to hit those handstands by level 9, she is shooting her butt toward the ceiling and coming up short rather than pushing through her arms and really squeezing. Her beam is just really wobbly and loose, she should be really stretched and tight, the legs were also bent on the BHS's. In all honesty it looks like she just needs a lot of work on being tight, when you do beam and bars you should feel every muscle in your body being engaged. Good attempts though!
 
she needs more time to train what she is currently doing. and it looks as though she went thru and is still in a growth spurt.

bars- no handstands, bent knees on both casts, a 'no value' swing 1/2 turn with a 2/10 deduction in it [she would be better served doing a jump from the board to the high bar then a cast to handstand or free hip to handstand and then bail swing] hit feet on floor after bail, and a flyaway 1/2 with a 2/10 execution error. the routine performed is really a level 8 routine.

beam- a series that meets the minimum requirement with no bonus and apparently 1 judge gave her credit for 'connecting' at least 1 of the leap/jumps. the other judge gave her no credit at all for either. she did stop on both not connecting either. so, that is to the discretion of the judge. her dismount had a 3/10 deduction for execution and direction.

try to remember that state meet for level 9 and 10 is to decide the best of the best to represent the state at regionals. and then to decide the best of the best to represent your region at nationals.

and please don't shoot the messenger.:) and i also saw my long time buddy/colleague kevin brown [coach of brandy johnson and wendy bruce back in the day] standing at the bars in the front of the frame.
 
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she needs more time to train what she is currently doing. and it looks as though she went thru and is still in a growth spurt.

bars- no handstands, bent knees on both casts, a 'no value' swing 1/2 turn with a 2/10 deduction in it [she would be better served doing a jump from the board to the high bar then a cast to handstand or free hip to handstand and then bail swing] hit feet on floor after bail, and a flyaway 1/2 with a 2/10 execution error. the routine performed is really a level 8 routine.

beam- a series that meets the minimum requirement with no bonus and apparently 1 judge gave her credit for 'connecting' at least 1 of the leap/jumps. the other judge gave her no credit at all for either. she did stop on both not connecting either. so, that is to the discretion of the judge. her dismount had a 3/10 deduction for execution and direction.

try to remember that state meet for level 9 and 10 is to decide the best of the best to represent the state at regionals. and then to decide the best of the best to represent your region at nationals.

and please don't shoot the messenger.:) and i also saw my long time buddy/colleague kevin brown [coach of brandy johnson and wendy bruce back in the day] standing at the bars in the front of the frame.


Thank you Dunno! I do not take anything you say offensively at all. Yes, she has gone through quite the growth spurt during the past year. (around 6 inches). I agree she needs some time to grow into her body. She was just hoping for a little understanding, so she knows what to fix. And I appreciate your feedback.

The judge that came to her gym to evaluate them suggested the same bar mount. Her HC didn't seem to thrilled with it for some reason.

She had her 1st day back to training yesterday. She is working on getting her Double back dismount back (she had it earlier in the year but then it became unsafe). And working her flight connection on the high beams. Hopefully after 4 years..this is the year she will get it!

Thank you again!
 
she'll get it. the tools are there you can see. she just needs more time to train.:)
 
If she's been working bhs bhs on beam for 4 years and it's still not clicking, maybe it makes sense to train a different series. Is you coach open to alternatives? My dd's friends do a variety of beam series successfully. One level 9 does front tuck, bhs and another does back tuck, bhs. My dd liked front to back connections and trained FWO, bhs for level 8.
 
If she's been working bhs bhs on beam for 4 years and it's still not clicking, maybe it makes sense to train a different series. Is you coach open to alternatives? My dd's friends do a variety of beam series successfully. One level 9 does front tuck, bhs and another does back tuck, bhs. My dd liked front to back connections and trained FWO, bhs for level 8.

She competed FHS BHS in 2 meets this year. After training it for about a month, it was inconsistently connected. Fell on it in the 2nd meet of the year and the her coach said enough of that. He, unfortunately, is not that open to other skills. It is something I wish would change.

Thank you for the suggestion.
 
Her dismount on bars probably deduction for lack of height. Her feett hit the floor in her bar routine. Bent legs during her casts.

Sorry if this was already mentioned. I am replying quickly and haven't read through above.

Will take a look at beam later on...
 
Bars: When I judged it I came up with a 9.7 SV. I had 2.0 in execution deductions and nothing in composition. She changed direction, she went to vertical, she did pirouettes and flight. As others have said there were knee problems, but the there is also a flat .3 deduction for her cast on the high bar into the shoot over. That deduction is waved at L8, but not at L9. Every cast must go to handstand and when you cast horizontal or under it is a flat .3 As dunno said, she gets a flat .1 deduction for her tap 1/2 turn for an uncharacteristic element and plenty of judges would also take a .3 extra swing deduction there. So I had her a little lower than the judges at a 7.7.

Beam: This was a little more confusing to me. I couldn't figure out the 8.9 SV. I had a 9.1 SV. I had her missing a .5 SR (acro series), the full .3 in bonus (I didn't connect any of her switch leap series), which resulted in her second switch leap being a non-value part, so I only had 7 skills (which I counted her mount as a skill because I didn't see how she got to the sitting position...but if she just jumped on the beam to that position, she would only have 6 skills in her routine.) So, I took another .1 for a missing A off her SV.

I only had 9.5 in execution...which I could have been higher but from the angle the video was from I didn't have a good view of her split angles. The biggie was the .7 in composition deductions. I took:
.05 lack of fwd/side and bwd acro skills (its a flat .05 because she does a fwd dismount and bwd tumbling on the beam)
.1 lack of level change (this could be debated because she started low to the beam...there might be a clarification out there about this...so take this deduction with a grain of salt.)
.2 no dance series (since I broke both switch leap connections she didn't have a dance series)
.2 acro not up to the competitive level (from a judging point of view, she did 1 backhandspring - the second is a non element because it is exactly the same as the first...the only thing it gets her is more execution deductions) at the state level (at least in my state) there is an expectation of a C acro skill on the beam at L9
.15 for balance between acro and dance. She attempted 4 dance C/D and only 2 acro B/C

So, I had a 7.45, which is obviously in range with the 7.3, and would make sense the score was a little lower if someone had a 8.9 SV. The only thing i could think was the judge didn't give credit for a one of the Bs...BUT...I still can't make all the math work.

As for asking the judge what she was missing...at a state meet the coach would have had to fill out a score inquiry form, so it actually is a bigger deal than you might be thinking. You can't just go up to the table and ask, it is more formal than that. When an inquiry form is filled out and delivered to the judges, the very first thing we do is recount all of our deductions and our SV, then the score is re-averaged. There is always a chance the score could change from that alone and you have a 50/50 chance of the score going lower or higher. Some coaches are also weary to inquire because they don't want to make the judges mad. I'm an advocate of inquiring, the judges in our area...who I'm obviously good friends with since I spend almost all my weekends with them...roll their eyes when I have my kids in a meet because they know I'm going to ask. Even though I have a L10 rating, I always ask if I don't understand or agree, because if I don't know what the judge behind the table is seeing, how am I supposed to help my kids? That is a pet peeve of mine, because a lot of judges don't like inquiries because they look at it like a coach thinks they know better, when really they just want clarification. OK...so that was a little bit of a personal rant...sorry!

I'm not sure if I have helped or been more confusing...but I always think that when I post here.
 
GymPanda it certainly helped me. It is great to see the routines broken down and the OP's gymmies os old enough for that to be very useful.
 
Thank you GymPanda. Just understanding why HC wouldn't have asked makes things a easier to understand. There have been several times during the year that Beetle had various beam start value issues and HC never inquired about it. My DD just wants to know what was missing, and like Bog said, at 15 she is old enough to make sense of it all. She knows she needs her acro up to competition standard on beam. It has been a fear issue for the past few years.. I am hoping that she can go back to working the FHS BHS. That would also eliminate the lack of a forward acro element. But as I earlier posted HC doesn't seem thrilled with her working that flight series.

I did make an error in my OP. The start values were 8.9 and a 9.2 between the 2 judges, go figure. LOL

Thank you again!
 
I don't think we will ever understand scores, which makes it really tough on the kids. My DD is a level 8. At one meet she had her best bars ever, hit all handstands, no falls, just a little sloppy. That scored an 8.4. At another meet she didn't quite hit her handstands and fell on he squat on and scored 8.5.

Anyway congrats t your DD. She did a great job. Level 9 gymnastics is outstanding and the fact that she works hard is great!
 
Bars: When I judged it I came up with a 9.7 SV. I had 2.0 in execution deductions and nothing in composition. She changed direction, she went to vertical, she did pirouettes and flight. As others have said there were knee problems, but the there is also a flat .3 deduction for her cast on the high bar into the shoot over. That deduction is waved at L8, but not at L9. Every cast must go to handstand and when you cast horizontal or under it is a flat .3 As dunno said, she gets a flat .1 deduction for her tap 1/2 turn for an uncharacteristic element and plenty of judges would also take a .3 extra swing deduction there. So I had her a little lower than the judges at a 7.7.

Just a technical question - so you wouldn't take a compositional deduction (not up to the level, etc) for not having the release catch at a higher angle or a 3, 6, 7 skill to handstand (like the overall combination of not having these things, maybe not just one thing?). Would it matter if the meet was later in the season such as states or regionals? Or do these things just not matter compositionally at L9? Thanks.
 
Also - I bet next year her bars will improve a lot. I can see she has the endurance to make it through that routine without stopping, which is half the battle at this level. So, some more amplitude and comfort with the skills, and I think she will improve a lot.
 
Also - I bet next year her bars will improve a lot. I can see she has the endurance to make it through that routine without stopping, which is half the battle at this level. So, some more amplitude and comfort with the skills, and I think she will improve a lot.

Her growth spurt really affected the Endurance in her routines, I agree this will improve greatly by next year. Endurance is also part of the problem with her Double back dismount. She was running out of energy and peeling off the bars.
 
I agree with the general consensus, she has the skills, just needs to clean them up a bit. I can see the scores greatly improving by next season with just a little fine-tuning and some time to figure out the most advantageous skills and combinations for her.
I have to give her a ton of credit though, I can't imagine growing 6 inches in a year and being able to walk without tripping over myself, let alone compete level 9 skills! That's a pretty big accomplishment in itself.
 
Just a technical question - so you wouldn't take a compositional deduction (not up to the level, etc) for not having the release catch at a higher angle or a 3, 6, 7 skill to handstand (like the overall combination of not having these things, maybe not just one thing?). Would it matter if the meet was later in the season such as states or regionals? Or do these things just not matter compositionally at L9? Thanks.

There honestly aren't that many composition deductions to choose from at L9. There is not an up to the level for releases deduction at L9, there is at L10.

The deduction I could have drawn from is the up to .2 MAX choice of elements. Which is broken into .05 for failure to perform both fwd & bwd circles & releases. She did bwd circles and a fwd release. There is an argument here, that it is an and, not an or between circles and releases. But, I don't expect a L9 to do a fwd release and a bwd release AND a fwd circle and a bwd circle. Some will disagree...and that's fine, so there could be a flat .05 deduction.

Additionally that up to .2 is broken down to up to .1 balance between pirouettes & flight...she did one of each, so you can't really take anything here.
up to .1 lack of variety of elements and connections...you could definitely take this and you could make an argument on this routine for it...but I wouldn't take more than .05 here because she pirouettes, she does a turning flight skill over the low bar...it has a little bit of variety. You are also supposed to look at choosing skills from multiple groups, so your point about 3,6,7 skills is good. So...yes, you could definitely take up to .1 for lack of variety.
 

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