Parents Frustration with Xcel

[Twinmom]

And when you get to JO your gymmie will likely be competing with kids who go more hours. Or hold kids back until they can score 37s and so on. Or conditions more...... and so on. Unless of course your at the gyms that have high hours and hold kids back.

It is the nature of this sport.

I totally get this. I think that is the nature of any sport- there will always be athletes who train more, coaches who are better, parents who push harder, etc. But I feel like that amount of variety is expected and understood in JO and most competitive sports. I was just surprised at the way Xcel is being used by some gyms so contrary to what is seems originally designed for- and that has something to do with fairness, doesn’t it? Seems unfair to those using it as it was intended and trying to compete with something that’s impossible to compete with.

Anyway, I think everyone is so right that it can drive you crazy to stay focused on this! I am so grateful that we are at a good gym that supports my daughter and her team, and that my daughter is learning so many life lessons through these experiences.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I was just surprised at the way Xcel is being used by some gyms so contrary to what is seems originally designed for- and that has something to do with fairness, doesn’t it? Seems unfair to those using it as it was intended and trying to compete with something that’s impossible to compete with.

The problem is every one has a different understanding of what Xcels intent is. And also what low vs high hours are.

Around here we have gyms whose XCel programs are 4-6 hours a week. And some that are 12-16 hours a week. Some of those gyms Xcel programs have higher hours then our JO program. But at that gym their JO program is 18-20 hours, so to them their Xcel is low hours.

 

[Peachy88]

Does xcel have qualification for state scores? Mobility scores? We are at a very low hours gym 4 for level 3 and 6-8 for level 4 and 8 for level 5. Our state score is. 34 which is a good goal for our girls with their hours. This is what our girls focus on and then we have an in house meet with medals and go to a couple very small meets where we know the teams are similar.

 

[profmom]

The coaches do have some agency here, you know. They pick the meets. For the most part, experienced coaches will know which meets are going to be packed with XCel teams who are using XCel as a pass through to JO, just as JO coaches know which meets will have That Gym that requires compulsories to score 37s at three meets to move up, has a homeschool program, and has half their compulsories doing 20 extra hours of TOPS. And hopefully everyone's been to at least a few of those meets where it's like, "yay, you stayed on the beam, great job, here's your 9!"

I think it's useful to have a mix of meets. My son was just at a meet with national-level competition and national judging standards. He got his skinny butt handed to him, but now he knows what he's shooting for in terms of the competition (though he tends mostly to focus on himself). Next weekend he will hopefully get a little balm for his ego at our traditional pre-state warmup meet, which should be friendlier if he can just manage to stay on the equipment, stick his landings, and not crash any dismounts.

 

[MILgymFAM]

The coaches do have some agency here, you know. They pick the meets. For the most part, experienced coaches will know which meets are going to be packed with XCel teams who are using XCel as a pass through to JO, just as JO coaches know which meets will have That Gym that requires compulsories to score 37s at three meets to move up, has a homeschool program, and has half their compulsories doing 20 extra hours of TOPS. And hopefully everyone's been to at least a few of those meets where it's like, "yay, you stayed on the beam, great job, here's your 9!"

I think it's useful to have a mix of meets. My son was just at a meet with national-level competition and national judging standards. He got his skinny butt handed to him, but now he knows what he's shooting for in terms of the competition (though he tends mostly to focus on himself). Next weekend he will hopefully get a little balm for his ego at our traditional pre-state warmup meet, which should be friendlier if he can just manage to stay on the equipment, stick his landings, and not crash any dismounts.

Yes this. There are Xcel gyms that I know only go to tiny Xcel friendly type meets that big gyms wouldn’t touch. My DDs optional team goes to a good mix of giant meets with crazy amounts of competition and at least 1-2 tiny meets where the girls have a shot at being first place if it’s their day.. I appreciate the mix- BUT- I wouldn’t if I were blindsided and the difference was overwhelming. If my DD did mostly meets where she was first place and scoring 38s and then got hit with a meet where she was closer to last and scraping out a 34- without noticeable depreciation of presentation- I think it would be a bad day all around. I’ve seen a disparity like that and the girls were clueless.

 

[Peachy88]

Yes this. There are Xcel gyms that I know only go to tiny Xcel friendly type meets that big gyms wouldn’t touch. My DDs optional team goes to a good mix of giant meets with crazy amounts of competition and at least 1-2 tiny meets where the girls have a shot at being first place if it’s their day.. I appreciate the mix- BUT- I wouldn’t if I were blindsided and the difference was overwhelming. If my DD did mostly meets where she was first place and scoring 38s and then got hit with a meet where she was closer to last and scraping out a 34- without noticeable depreciation of presentation- I think it would be a bad day all around. I’ve seen a disparity like that and the girls were clueless.

Not to hijack but is the judging in JO more consistent because our girls seem to score very consistent from home meet to the largest meets in Chicago with slight improvements as they improve? I have never noticed judging to be easy or harder. I also don’t see a ton of 37, 38s here either. 35 36 with some achieving 37 38 seems more typical.

 

[Peachy88]

Not to hijack but is the judging in JO more consistent because our girls seem to score very consistent from home meet to the largest meets in Chicago with slight improvements as they improve? I have never noticed judging to be easy or harder. I also don’t see a ton of 37, 38s here either. 35 36 with some achieving 37 38 seems more typical.

IN fact I just looked up a recent meet and out of 175 level 4s there were only 5 37s.

 

[profmom]

Peachykeehn, no, judging is not consistent. If you look through CB, you'll see endless numbers of threads discussing this and talking about where and what kinds of meets have higher or lower scores.

MIL, I think our coaches do a good job of telling the athletes what to expect. It's good because then they go into the big meets with lowered expectations, and if they end up doing well, it's an additional bonus. Haha, my son was very happy with his low 10 on horse, which he achieved by racking up nearly 3 points in deductions without a fall. But there were kids getting 4s and 5s, and some poor benighted soul got a 2! If he didn't know what he was walking into, he might have been upset instead of happy.

 

[skschlag]

Peachykeehn, no, judging is not consistent. If you look through CB, you'll see endless numbers of threads discussing this and talking about where and what kinds of meets have higher or lower scores.

MIL, I think our coaches do a good job of telling the athletes what to expect. It's good because then they go into the big meets with lowered expectations, and if they end up doing well, it's an additional bonus. Haha, my son was very happy with his low 10 on horse, which he achieved by racking up nearly 3 points in deductions without a fall. But there were kids getting 4s and 5s, and some poor benighted soul got a 2! If he didn't know what he was walking into, he might have been upset instead of happy.

man..that judge liked his deductions. we saw 2s and 3s during hte L10 session!

 

[profmom]

Sorry for the hijack, but, like, HOW DO YOU EVEN COME UP WITH A TWO????? I know horse is hard and I know some guys have multiple falls, but really?

 

[raenndrops]

I totally get this. I think that is the nature of any sport- there will always be athletes who train more, coaches who are better, parents who push harder, etc. But I feel like that amount of variety is expected and understood in JO and most competitive sports. I was just surprised at the way Xcel is being used by some gyms so contrary to what is seems originally designed for- and that has something to do with fairness, doesn’t it? Seems unfair to those using it as it was intended and trying to compete with something that’s impossible to compete with.

Anyway, I think everyone is so right that it can drive you crazy to stay focused on this! I am so grateful that we are at a good gym that supports my daughter and her team, and that my daughter is learning so many life lessons through these experiences.

One of the original intents of Xcel that I originally left out was to give JO compulsory gymnasts a chance to compete Optional meets in their off-season.
And the only way it would be "unfair" is if they are cheating:
Competing girls in Silver who have already competed JO 4 (I know of a club gym that did this... and they got away with it because the girl had never competed in a meet that had results posted online). This club also has very stringent move up requirements... they can't move to Gold unless they have a Kip (not required until Platinum) and an acro series on beam (not required until Platinum or Diamond, depending) and either a connected front tumbling pass on floor or a B salto on floor (not required until Platinum or Diamond, depending).

I do get "unfair":
When I played baseball, there was "that one team" that everyone lost to. Found out after the "coach pitch" (ages 6-12) tournament my 2nd year that they were cheating. They were caught when one of the boys got into HIS car and drove away after the game. My older brother saw this. He told our dad (our assistant coach) and our dad told HC and HC talked to "President" of our sysyem. Investigation ensued where it was discovered that they hey had 3-4 boys who not only played coach pitch, but also Little League (ages 8-12, kid pitch) AND Pony League (ages 13-15) ... AND the High School Team (9th - 12th grade). They used first name in 1 league, middle name in another, nickname in the 3rd... so it just seemed like the family had more kids that just all looked alike.
We switched to a different system the next year because apparently, this had been going on for years and nobody had caught it (and 3 HCs were actively involved - the dads of the boys who coached in the 3 different leagues).

 

[MILgymFAM]

Not to hijack but is the judging in JO more consistent because our girls seem to score very consistent from home meet to the largest meets in Chicago with slight improvements as they improve? I have never noticed judging to be easy or harder. I also don’t see a ton of 37, 38s here either. 35 36 with some achieving 37 38 seems more typical.

Yes, I’ve seen it. My DD had a season of mostly 32ish AA and then one meet where she was closer to a 35. There are some meets that are a wink and a nod to getting girls qualified for states, where they invariably do not place. I’ve found in our personal experience that the meets that never end up on MSO because they’re the tiny, obscure meets are the ones with the highest scores and/or placements. Even now that my DD is a more solid gymnast, her one meet where she got first place this season isn’t on MSO.. I mean the scores are real, official, and available online.. but none of the powerhouse gyms were there and the host gym didn’t even bother with live scoring..

 

[John]

My DD has been to one small meet, the rest were medium to large. She was judged by the same judges she has seen for most the year. Her scores gave gone up ever so slightly throughout the year. I think the judges we have seen have been remarkably consistent. It actually amazes me.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I know what you mean about the difference in Xcel styles of coaching/training. One thing emphasized at Regional Congress was that Xcel is not intended to replace compulsories, nor is it a bridge over level 4 & 5 to optionals. Yet, that is how many gyms train and use Xcel. I understand your frustration. We had Gym Stars, which is a truly rec level competitive team. It was emphasized that Gym Stars is not a training level or a pre-team, but a fun team for girls who will most likely never be on the JO/Xcel/AAU/etc team. Well, some gyms ignored that and we arrived at meets with our true Gym Stars routines only to compete against teams that were actually doing all the old Level 4 routines--PERFECTLY mind you--and winning everything. The girls were upset, the parents were upset, and after 3 years of that kind of stress, our gym cancelled our Gym Stars program. It was sad, because one of my daughters was on the team and she loved it. She had a lot of fun and it sparked her desire to work harder and make the level 4 team, which she did and went on to be on Prep-Op and old Level 5 where she was state champion on 3 events. But people don't listen to rules, and that's what happens.

 

[profmom]

I saw on FB a few days ago some posts regarding a small unsanctioned Y meet at which a JO team that practices 20+ hours a week showed up to sweep the awards. It was really saddening to me to see that. Why? Especially at this point in the season around here, where you can barely toss a pebble without hitting a JO meet of pretty much any size or competitive level you desire within a two-hour drive?

 

[Twinmom]

So, given all that has been discussed, do you all feel like JO meets are more “fair” in the sense that everyone is on the same page about what the goals are? It seems like with JO everyone is working their butt off (though I realize training hours can vary gym to gym) to try and get and compete the same skills give or take, and most parents and gymnasts know what to expect. We were at another meet over the weekend where only Xcel Silver teams were present, but there was no consistency with routines/skills being competed/skill level from team to team, because apparently everyone’s version of what Xcel is or should be, is different (as discussed above). Seemed like apples were competing against oranges in many cases!

 

[MILgymFAM]

So, given all that has been discussed, do you all feel like JO meets are more “fair” in the sense that everyone is on the same page about what the goals are? It seems like with JO everyone is working their butt off (though I realize training hours can vary gym to gym) to try and get and compete the same skills give or take, and most parents and gymnasts know what to expect. We were at another meet over the weekend where only Xcel Silver teams were present, but there was no consistency with routines/skills being competed/skill level from team to team, because apparently everyone’s version of what Xcel is or should be, is different (as discussed above). Seemed like apples were competing against oranges in many cases!

Nope. Not at all. My DDs JO team is open to anyone that wants to train more than 6 hours a week. They allow everyone to do more creative skills. They are a low hours gym, with all optionals training 16 hours a week. They have truly awful and lacking equipment- lots of overuse injuries (including my DD) because of that. It is definitely not an even playing field when put against some other local teams with 30 hour weeks, handpicked teams, homeschool programs, brand new gyms with pits and good floors, more coaches (practices end up canceled when people get sick because the gym has two team coaches for compulsories and optionals). But.. while it’s not a level playing field, it was a choice (to an extent- none of those gyms would take my DD for JO) so we knew what we were getting and the trade offs. Our girls hold their own for the most part, but even when they don’t..they’re happy with their gym.

 

[John]

So, given all that has been discussed, do you all feel like JO meets are more “fair” in the sense that everyone is on the same page about what the goals are? It seems like with JO everyone is working their butt off (though I realize training hours can vary gym to gym) to try and get and compete the same skills give or take, and most parents and gymnasts know what to expect. We were at another meet over the weekend where only Xcel Silver teams were present, but there was no consistency with routines/skills being competed/skill level from team to team, because apparently everyone’s version of what Xcel is or should be, is different (as discussed above). Seemed like apples were competing against oranges in many cases!

That is a tough question. DD is level 7 and he team usually seems to do well even against homeschool teams. They train 16 hours a week. I think the definition of fair as asked is very hard to define. I do think it is fairer than the described Xcel experience above. To compete well a gym and a coaching staff has to have that as a goal and expectation of each athlete and practice accordingly. The hours of training and a gym's equipment are two wildcards. I think every gymnast needs to identify what they want from gymnastics. If winning is the goal then pick a gym with and or train with that goal. If gaining skills and advancing is the ultimate goal also choose accordingly. Then be happy with the path you selected and reach for your goals.

 

[MILgymFAM]

This is from a local meet, L6 and L7. There is always this spread, and it’s fairly consistent who is where (with allowance for unusual falls). I know a couple gyms at the top and the bottom of these lists and they are not treating JO as the same beast. I don’t think it’s unfair, per say, but I don’t believe it’s all equal either. I think people are mostly getting exactly what they expect from their training. If you want a 37+ score you *generally* go to a 37+ gym.

 

[MILgymFAM]

View attachment 7138 View attachment 7139 This is from a local meet, L6 and L7. There is always this spread, and it’s fairly consistent who is where (with allowance for unusual falls). I know a couple gyms at the top and the bottom of these lists and they are not treating JO as the same beast. I don’t think it’s unfair, per say, but I don’t believe it’s all equal either. I think people are mostly getting exactly what they expect from their training. If you want a 37+ score you *generally* go to a 37+ gym.

And to clarify myself- I’m not in any way complaining about how my DDs gym shows at meets. They have a great mix of abilities, which is to be expected when they have an open team policy, and then train the 33 girls with the same care as the 37 girls. That’s what I mean by choice, because our 37 girls could easily be accepted by the top gyms (and one switched from one), but they acknowledge the difference in JO philosophies and embrace that. When my DDs team took the 1st place team award this weekend, the trophy went home (temporarily) with the girl who had scored the lowest. Because she never gives up.