WAG Why the Continual Push to make the Upper Levels Harder?

DON'T LURK... Join The Discussion!

Members see FEWER ads

my4buffaloes

Proud Parent
The past few years it seems that every single year they are making things harder for the level 9's and 10's - and then of course there is a trickle down effect for the 8's. They want harder skills, more skills, shorter pauses, now no pauses (beam), etc. If the skills aren't becoming more difficult then the judging is, so you lose either way. Why? I feel they are driving kids out of the sport because suddenly just on the cusp of moving up a level the rules are changed and they don't have what they need.

I think we all know that when kids don't get to move up (I am referring to repeating the same level more than 2 years) they tend to not want to stay in the sport. It just isn't fun to be a 3-4 year level 8 or 9 when the goal of pretty much all gymnasts in the upper levels is to make it to level 10.

I have 2 dd's who are 4 years apart. My younger dd had to do skills 1-2 levels sooner than my older dd ever had to because of the increased difficulty. The rule changes prevented my dd from making the jump from 9 to 10 once already and now it is looking like it could happen again. Maybe this is just our coaches interpretations or maybe it is a regional thing. Or maybe it is my imagination.

Am I the only one that feels it gets harder each year just to be competitive in their level - without moving up even. Why the continual push for more difficulty?
 
The requirements for 9/10 have not changed much in several years. It has more to do with the up to level deductions. I think it partly has to do with differentiating the gymnasts within those upper levels. It is awarding the gymnasts who can/do push for the higher skills with better precision vs just competing bare minimum. The "up to competitive level" has always been there. The sport has just chosen to make this more objective so that every judge is assessing the routines uniformly. The issue comes when the coaches choose to interpret this as their gymnasts must be able to have 10.0 SV with no "up to level" deductions in order to compete at that level and prevent gymnasts from moving up as a result
 
Because kids throwing big difficult routines are getting outscored by kids throwing easy routines.. it’s about time and it’s the only thing USAG got right this year. Think about it , what other sport handicaps it’s best athletes to make the playing field even ? Do they give people head starts in track ? Start a game with a touchdown lead ? Just Gymnastics .... So while it may appear to be unfair, it’s actually a step in the right direction to making it fair.
 
Because kids throwing big difficult routines are getting outscored by kids throwing easy routines.. it’s about time and it’s the only thing USAG got right this year. Think about it , what other sport handicaps it’s best athletes to make the playing field even ? Do they give people head starts in track ? Start a game with a touchdown lead ? Just Gymnastics .... So while it may appear to be unfair, it’s actually a step in the right direction to making it fair.

I see your point and it makes sense. I think the girls like my older one who seem to have what they need and then it suddenly becomes harder (making the judging harder makes gymnastics harder to succeed in) - are struggling to keep up with everything. It seems over the past few years that she can hardly keep up with the requirements and just as she gets to the goal line they move the goal line. I like rewarding the harder stuff, but then the ones that aren't great and/or don't have great coaching will never make it to 10 or will make it but not be competitive. My older dd is feeling very beat down with the changes every year. My younger dd is more prepared because things have been this way since a much lower level for her so she doesn't have to play catch-up.
 
The past few years it seems that every single year they are making things harder for the level 9's and 10's - and then of course there is a trickle down effect for the 8's. They want harder skills, more skills, shorter pauses, now no pauses (beam), etc. If the skills aren't becoming more difficult then the judging is, so you lose either way. Why? I feel they are driving kids out of the sport because suddenly just on the cusp of moving up a level the rules are changed and they don't have what they need.

I think we all know that when kids don't get to move up (I am referring to repeating the same level more than 2 years) they tend to not want to stay in the sport. It just isn't fun to be a 3-4 year level 8 or 9 when the goal of pretty much all gymnasts in the upper levels is to make it to level 10.

I have 2 dd's who are 4 years apart. My younger dd had to do skills 1-2 levels sooner than my older dd ever had to because of the increased difficulty. The rule changes prevented my dd from making the jump from 9 to 10 once already and now it is looking like it could happen again. Maybe this is just our coaches interpretations or maybe it is a regional thing. Or maybe it is my imagination.

Am I the only one that feels it gets harder each year just to be competitive in their level - without moving up even. Why the continual push for more difficulty?
There are a lot of girls in Upper level optionals that DON'T have a goal to make it to level 10. I personally know several Level 8s that had the opportunity to move to Level 9 (they may have gotten up to level deductions, but would have a 10.0 SV on 3/4 events) ... but they all chose to repeat Level 8 (this will be their 3rd year or more at L8). They are not worried about upgrading much at all - just cleaning up what they have.
 
The past few years it seems that every single year they are making things harder for the level 9's and 10's - and then of course there is a trickle down effect for the 8's. They want harder skills, more skills, shorter pauses, now no pauses (beam), etc. If the skills aren't becoming more difficult then the judging is, so you lose either way. Why? I feel they are driving kids out of the sport because suddenly just on the cusp of moving up a level the rules are changed and they don't have what they need.

Athletes can still pause for 1.5 seconds w/o a deduction, as it's been for at least several years. The 2 second pause deduction still applies, it's .1. What is new is the more than 2 second pause deduction that is now .2. Gymnastics SHOULD flow, look back at beam routines from the 70s & 80s...
 
There are a lot of girls in Upper level optionals that DON'T have a goal to make it to level 10. I personally know several Level 8s that had the opportunity to move to Level 9 (they may have gotten up to level deductions, but would have a 10.0 SV on 3/4 events) ... but they all chose to repeat Level 8 (this will be their 3rd year or more at L8). They are not worried about upgrading much at all - just cleaning up what they have.

This makes me wonder... WHY did they want to repeat Level 8? My guess is that their perception may be that Level 9 would be difficult at best and they would not be competitive. Or, at least not as successful as they would like. So, the thought that the levels are getting harder is there - and may be keeping talented kids who may have moved up in the past at lower levels (even by their own choice). That, in turn, makes the lower levels much more competitive (and thus difficult too). It's like a domino effect. And, in some ways, seems similar (if not tied to) those gyms who don't move kids up so that they can win meets - even though their gymnasts are training multiple levels above the level they actually compete at.

I am just happy when my daughter is happy in the gym. Fortunately, while she may be competing a new level this year, her expectations aren't unrealistic and she's just excited to be doing new and/or cleaner skills this year.
 
They wanted to repeat because they have lives outside of gymnastics ... track team for some and cheerleading for others, plus they all do the high school gymnastics team - meaning they only get a short season for us (3-4 meets total for our team since our state doesn't allow gymnasts to compete for their school at the same time as their team). They all know they won't be doing college gymnastics - it is just a fun activity that keeps them physically fit and allows them to burn off energy.
In our area, at Level 9, they would not have much competition. And these girls just aren't driven by learning BIG skills. We don't have a pit, so we don't flip on vault - we twist. No double backs off bars and no crazy flipping on floor either.
They aren't training skills that can't be competed in L8. They don't do it for a competitive advantage. Training is only 7.5 hours a week. And a lot of the teams we compete against have girls who repeat Level 8 for multiple years too ... even though one team does have a pit (and train more hours), and 2 other teams have easy access to a gym with a pit (their coaches even go with them to open gym at a gym with multiple pits sometimes). I am not a fan of sandbagging and neither is our HC. We had a meet this summer where our Xcel Platinums were unknowingly competing against some girls who had competed L7 or even L8 either this past season or the season before. The Xcel Platinum TEAM award went to a team with 4 L8s (including 2 who competed L8 at Regionals this year) and a L7 on it. :(
 
Adding another level has been in discussion amongst the coaching community for years . Creating an Open division and allowing unlimited bonus , same rules as current L10 to
Keep it simple. But that would enable L10 to regress back to post 2019
Rules. But that would also create chaos at nationals. So the sensible outcome would be to split nationals East/west so each host could hold a separate day for the Open division . But that makes too
Much sense ;)
 
Adding another level has been in discussion amongst the coaching community for years . Creating an Open division and allowing unlimited bonus , same rules as current L10 to
Keep it simple. But that would enable L10 to regress back to post 2019
Rules. But that would also create chaos at nationals. So the sensible outcome would be to split nationals East/west so each host could hold a separate day for the Open division . But that makes too
Much sense ;)

Having an open division would make so much sense. I hope that comes to be.
 
The changes really only help separate the girls who should be scoring 9.5/9.6/9.7 from those who should be scoring 9.3/9.4, so the girls throwing the big skills well place ahead of the girls throwing easier skills well at Nationals, as they should. If a gym is not allowing a kid that would score 9.3/9.4 at level 10 to compete level 10, if they only want to let girls compete who can win Nationals, that is a coach/gym issue, not a JO rule issue. An open division would solve this, as coachp says, but until then...
 
Adding another level has been in discussion amongst the coaching community for years . Creating an Open division and allowing unlimited bonus , same rules as current L10 to
Keep it simple. But that would enable L10 to regress back to post 2019
Rules. But that would also create chaos at nationals. So the sensible outcome would be to split nationals East/west so each host could hold a separate day for the Open division . But that makes too
Much sense ;)
Didn't there used to be open sessions?? I seem to recall watching Maggie Nichols at a few of our local meets, when she was an elite and couldn't compete JO, but I saw her compete in what I thought was an "open" division or something like that...but I could be totally remembering this wrong.
 
The changes really only help separate the girls who should be scoring 9.5/9.6/9.7 from those who should be scoring 9.3/9.4, so the girls throwing the big skills well place ahead of the girls throwing easier skills well at Nationals, as they should. If a gym is not allowing a kid that would score 9.3/9.4 at level 10 to compete level 10, if they only want to let girls compete who can win Nationals, that is a coach/gym issue, not a JO rule issue. An open division would solve this, as coachp says, but until then...
Currently the easier rountines our score the more difficult ... even at nationals ... sad but true
 
Didn't there used to be open sessions?? I seem to recall watching Maggie Nichols at a few of our local meets, when she was an elite and couldn't compete JO, but I saw her compete in what I thought was an "open" division or something like that...but I could be totally remembering this wrong.
Yes but that is just a session where elites can compete against 10’s . And .... sadly it was poof that the easier routines would quite often beat even an elite ...
 
Yes but that is just a session where elites can compete against 10’s . And .... sadly it was poof that the easier routines would quite often beat even an elite ...
Gotcha. And yes, you are correct, the score that Maggie got for her elite routine was WAY lower than the top scores of the level 10s, even though the skills in her routines were way harder.
 
Gotcha. And yes, you are correct, the score that Maggie got for her elite routine was WAY lower than the top scores of the level 10s, even though the skills in her routines were way harder.
And that problem has been in place for about 15 years. As the kids and coaches get better around the nation the rules need to be tweaked accordingly . In other words the coaching and facilities are getting better and better and this is the result.
 
As long as the 10.0 system is being used then there is going to be a ceiling. An ultimate difficulty level for each level, once the athlete hits this ceiling there is no further point in adding difficulty to their routine, as there will be no benefit just risk of further deductions.

At most levels it is fine to have a ceiling, and once the athlete reaches the ceiling, then it's time to head to the next level level. But what if that level is level 10. Unless the gym, gymnasts, coaches and family are prepared to go to Elite, then that's it, the point of continuing to develop harder skills is zero when it comes to improving routines and scores.

So the way USAG has chosen to deal with that is withnthe up to level deductions, making the ceiling for Level 10 as high as possible so kids can continue to add difficulty to their routines. Thus raising the standard of leve, 8 and 9, so that Level 10 is not a ridiculous jump.
 

New Posts

DON'T LURK... Join The Discussion!

Members see FEWER ads

Gymnaverse :: Recent Activity

College Gym News

New Posts

Back