Parents "A" Team and "B" Team at same gym

[gymbeam]

i can appreciate that point of view in most cases carboc, but had to reply to giver another example. we have A and B groups in our gym and the main difference isnt their current ability, but the amount of uptraining that also happens. some girls are only training for JO and some are also trying to prepare for HOPES testing which requires they learn additional skills that the others don't need to. in this case it does make sense to split them up based on their potential trajectory.

 

[CLgym]

My DD's L4 team has 11 girls, and is often broken into two groups (or partially mixed with the much smaller L5 team). However, I've noticed the groupings are fluid and often depend on the event or even who is at practice that day. Maybe this is not typical, but at DD's gym different girls seem to excel at different events (e.g., the best girl on bars is not the best on floor, etc.). In addition, even within groupings, girls might be given slightly different directions/drills. No parent drama, although I imagine it takes some serious planning by the coaches!

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

i can appreciate that point of view in most cases carboc, but had to reply to giver another example. we have A and B groups in our gym and the main difference isnt their current ability, but the amount of uptraining that also happens. some girls are only training for JO and some are also trying to prepare for HOPES testing which requires they learn additional skills that the others don't need to. in this case it does make sense to split them up based on their potential trajectory.

Our gym trains the HOPES and TOPs girls alongside the others that are competing the same JO level, they up-train during the TOPs practices. I just think it's doable, and better for the kids, who are close enough in ability to be competing the same level. No one wants their child pigeon holed for having a bad couple months, gym is a journey. If the B kids are so much off from the As, there are better options like Xcel. I am not talking about splits for training groups at practice, tho, only when there is a clear A team with the best coaching and B team with not as good coaching. Splitting training groups based on ability at practice is totally acceptable. In that case there is fluidity, if Susie gets out of her season long rut, or over a fear, she is easily switched to the up-training beam group that day, for example.

 

[gymbeam]

Im confused, though, why is moving them to Xcel less "pigeon holing" than just being in a different JO training group?

 

[txgymfan]

I prefer if the groups are considered one team and the ability groups are worked on by event. It allows even more specializatized coaching and often leads to a better team unity.

 

[gymbeam]

Well, I did say we had A and B teams but I didn't mean they are literally considered different teams. They are considered one, but have different practice hours, practice times (day vs. night) and different coaches. The only overlap of practice time is on Saturdays.

When it comes time for meets though, they are one team.

 

[txgymfan]

Sometimes due to scheduling, two groups are necessary especially at the lower levels. In that case it makes perfect sense to group based on ability.

 

[NY Dad]

My dd on pre-team said that after conditioning they split the girls into 2 groups. She's never been told that there's an A or B but she said it's obvious that the girls are split by overall ability. Generally speaking the groups haven't changed.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Im confused, though, why is moving them to Xcel less "pigeon holing" than just being in a different JO training group?

Exactly what I was thinking.

And coaching. Everyone should be getting the same coaching, as in the best for their abilities.

So happy our gym has none of the Xcel, JO, IGC, pecking order crud. We have done them all. The whole gym together. Coaches feel a BHS is a BHS, doesn't matter if you flip it in Xcel, JO, IGC. Flip it well.

Groups change based on kids at practice and coaches available and ability per event. L4-L8 all practice together.

 

[Gymmommy71]

Im confused, though, why is moving them to Xcel less "pigeon holing" than just being in a different JO training group?

While it can have the same unhappy parent/frustrated gymnast effect if they would rather be in JO, at least it doesn't have the added sting of the B group having to compete directly against the A group at meets.

We also have some frustrated Xcel families at my gym, however they are nowhere near at the level of frustration of most of the B group compulsories.

I feel bad for these people cause many of them are new to competitive gymnastics and have already become quite disgruntled. I don't think they are all CGM types or set out to be that way either, and it bugs me that the go to assumption is that a parent who feels their kid is getting shortchanged is just "crazy" - it's a lot easier to be happy and sane when your kid is a member of the A group and getting the best training for her age/skill level that the gym provides.

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Im confused, though, why is moving them to Xcel less "pigeon holing" than just being in a different JO training group?

The kids are naturally comparing themselves to their peers at meets. Xcel isn't pigeon holing, it's a separate track with potentially different goals but just as good outcomes in character and sport development. I think it's a recipe for a toxic environment among parents and the gymnasts to have same aged peers, in the same level, separated by ability to the degree that it warrants labeling of A and B and less attention and coaching quality given to the lesser ability group.

 

[gymbeam]

ok, i can appreciate that. i hadn't considered that competing in separate tracks does seem kinder.

but, i have a feeling if you asked all of our B group (or C, we actually have 3 groups) if they wanted to stay in JO or compete Xcel they would choose to stay right where they were without hesitation. our B and C groups are also amazing gymnasts. they are always in the youngest age groups and always score very high. all of them. they are all hoping to do college gymnastics and those who aren't already level 10 are all on track to reach it by 8th or 9th grade. xcel just wouldn't fly with them.

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Right, it's very gym dependent, but sounds like you have a large number of talented kids to where it makes more sense. I am more speaking of level 4/5 ish kids with 32AAs on B team, against 36-37 AA kids on A. At a certain point coaches know when level 10/College/Elite isn't happening, and those kids are better for not being constantly compared to those who are on that track. Parents will always hold out "hope" and not want them out of JO. Often the same parents think their child is going to get a college scholarship when they are a 9 yr old level 4 and the kid is being bribed to set foot in the gym as it is already...good luck forcing a teenager to do gymnastics, let alone the talent and drive it takes). It's not a black or white thing. Some gyms don't do Xcel, some states or regions use it differently, etc. If it's at a point where the OP is asking this question here, it's a problem w/in the gym that needs addressed, even if it can only be addressed by communication on the gyms part as to managing expectations for all. At the minimum extra care needs to be given to making all the kids feel they are contributing to the team in some way.

 

[LindyHopper]

All of Short Stack's level 5 teammates practice together. But there are far too many of them, so during that practice it's split into two groups after warm ups.

Sometimes it's the shortest half and the tallest half
Others, it the youngest half and the oldest half. (Completely NOT the same as shortest/tallest)
Others they count off by twos as they go down the line and it's the odds and the evens.
Other times there is no rhyme or reason that I can see.

The girls remain in those groups throughout that practice. The next practice they are split into possibly the same, or possibly entirely different groups.

I'm sure the coaches have a very clear idea of what they're doing. It's just not very discernable to the girls (or their parents).

 

[gymnastmom05]

All of Short Stack's level 5 teammates practice together. But there are far too many of them, so during that practice it's split into two groups after warm ups.

Sometimes it's the shortest half and the tallest half
Others, it the youngest half and the oldest half. (Completely NOT the same as shortest/tallest)
Others they count off by twos as they go down the line and it's the odds and the evens.
Other times there is no rhyme or reason that I can see.

The girls remain in those groups throughout that practice. The next practice they are split into possibly the same, or possibly entirely different groups.

I'm sure the coaches have a very clear idea of what they're doing. It's just not very discernable to the girls (or their parents).

Our team used to do this when we were in lower levels and our team was much larger. They were almost always split by height just to save timeadjusting equipment so often. Other days they were split based on a specific goal they might be working on on an event. For instance, half the girls were needing a little more help with vault, they would be grouped so they could continue to work on perfecting that whereas the other girls could do more uptraining during their rotation. Our team has never been a team that had a ton of hot shots. We always have a few that always seem to place well but on the same hand, we also have girls that give them a "run for their money" on each of the events. Some girls just seem to be on the same level on all events and that helps with AA score. On the other side, you have girls that are down right awesome on a one or two events but always seem to have "that one" event that holds them back on AA placement. Anyway, totally went off topic. I can say I'm happy we're at a gym that gives all the girls equal opportunity. Same coaches, same time and they recognize their strengths and weakness as an individual. And really, I feel that changes sometimes monthly in this sport!

 

[LindyHopper]

As a parent, I can't say that I would be terribly upset ( although, I might be briefly disappointed...) if my daughter was separated by ability into a lower group, as long as she had the same amount of time/training, and access to the same or very similar coaching or equipment. The more skilled group would get more opportunities to uptrain, because they were ready for it. You don't want athletes who aren't ready attempting to uptrain, when they don't have their current skills solid.

Where I would get upset is if I was paying the EXACT same amount of money as other parents, but the "other" group was getting better quality coaching, better equipment, a better coach/athlete ratio, and more hours.

If they are separating by ability, and want to give one group more hours, I am okay with that, as long as those parents are paying beyond what I am paying for the extra training.

 

[OrangeArt]

I'll add, being placed on the B group doesn't necessarily mean the kids would be better off in xcel. I've been at meets where this kind of grouping was evident (not our gym), and the B team scored in 34-35 range, where A team might have been 36-37, with outliers in each group. Imo all of those girls have potential for future success in higher levels just based on those scores.

 

[triplethreat+1]

I'll add, being placed on the B group doesn't necessarily mean the kids would be better off in xcel. I've been at meets where this kind of grouping was evident (not our gym), and the B team scored in 34-35 range, where A team might have been 36-37, with outliers in each group. Imo all of those girls have potential for future success in higher levels just based on those scores.

I agree, our training group that progresses slower are capable gymnasts at their level, they just need to spend a little more time on each level than the other. Or in some cases prefer slightly less commitment.
I think the key that keeps our parents happy is that they all receive the same quality of coaching, and tuition goes by hours/week, not level.

 

[Really]

OP here. I wanted to also mention that my DD was placed in her gym's "B" group because when she first began team, she was visibly intimidated by the "A" team girls and the coaches noticed she was more relaxed with the B team. That was a year ago and she now trains 2 days a week with the A team, one time a week with the B team because of our family's schedule. When I asked to have her moved that one day to train with the B team, her coach seemed very pleased to honor the request. The other (A-team) moms in my gym were like, "Why is she training with those girls? Doesn't it bother you that she has to train with them?" Uh, no, not really. Because with this schedule, I don't have to take an extra trip to the gym to drive her kid brother to his rec class on a different day. Some of the moms act like my daughter will get cooties from training with the B-team girls!

 

[Aussie_coach]

I disagree with the notion that all gymnasts from the same level should be getting the same hours, same training and so on.

First of all ability may not be the only thing the coaches are looking for when placing kids into the A and B groups. Things like effort in training, Committment, attendance etc may also play a role. Often the A team look like they were chosen just because they are better gymnasts, but they may be better gymnasts because of those other factors mentioned. If you have a group of students who are making the most of their hours, training to their full potential, putting 100% into the hours given and attending each session, then increasing hours can be an option. If you ahve students who are not fully using the hours they have ie absent a lot or not putting in 100% each session, it makes no sense to increase those hours.

Secondly different groups may have different ultimate goals, which means they have different training plans. The A group kids may be the ones who show potential for possible elite, to make this happen it means they need a lot more hours, high levels of strength training, a lot of up training on skills etc.

If you train all your gymnasts in this same manner, then you are likely to burn out some of them. It doesn't work for everyone, if the athlete is not destined for elite, then you don't need to put their bodies on the line in this way.

It is like TOP's training. Is it a great tool for gymnasts? Sure. Is it something that should be for everyone? No. TOP's requires hours and hours of conditioning. It will be hard and it will be painful. Invite the wrong athletes to participate and their joy for the sport decreases.

The other notion is that gyms that do this may also very deliberately be creating the resentment. The idea is not to create unrest between parents and teammates (although this can happen, and it's not nessesarily a great way to create success). But to create desire. The B team kids may be jealous of the A team kids, some kids will use this jealousy to step up their game to push to be selected for the A team. On the flip side, A team kids and parents probabaly enjoy their status and have a little fear of losing it. Which may keep them committed and working hard to avoid being moved down to the B team.

To top it off, equal level does not mean equal ability. You have level 5's who have all the level 5 skills to perfection, can do all the level 7 skills and are ready to work level 8 skills, and you can have leve, 5's who have just barely learned the level 5 skills and need a lot more work to train them consistently before advancing. These kids may have the same training level and the same competition routines, but that is where their training similarity ends.

Our kids are growing up in a world of instant gratification, everyone gets a trophy for participating and yiu can have whatever you want. One of the reasons we want our kids to do gymnastics is because it is not like this. You can't get out your credit card and buy skills and results. It takes time, effort and patience to learn gymnastics. It has it's ups and downs and sometimes it's painful or scary or difficult. But gymnasts push through because the rewards for their hard work are so wonderful, this teaches them incredible life lessons. Do we really want to put them in an environment where privledges are doled out on a basis of equality rather than effort.