WAG Abuse/dress code tangent: does judging artistry inherently sexualize athletes?

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Can artistry be judged without being inherently sexual?

Across almost all cultures, dance generally has a sexual element. Sometimes it's overt, with booty-shaking and shimmying; other times its subtle with displays of flexibility that just happen to put the crotch on display.
Now I want to say here up front: I have no problem with kids learning to dance, and I do not believe it is inherently sexual for the kids learning. To them, it's just movement to music, a way of expressing themselves while exploring (and expanding) the abilities and limitations of their own bodies, and this should be nurtured and encouraged. Great dancers are -- completely aside from any sexual aspect of the performance -- beautiful to watch.
But judging that physical artistry, reducing it to an objective numerical measurement, to me seems inherently controlling and sexualizing. We see this in gymnastics throughout the ages; gymnasts who are described as "artistic" are always long and lean and lithe. Thicker girls like Shawn Johnson are always described as "powerful," and never as "artistic." Older girls, like Oksana Chusovitna, are seldom if ever described as "artistic." The term "artistic" in gymnastics seems to be reserved exclusively for those who are young, lean, and flexible. And while there is nothing wrong with an athlete being young, lean, and flexible, it seems to me a bit creepy to reward athletes for these specific qualities.

On the men's side of the sport, artistry is not explicitly judged; athletes are only judged on objective qualities, such as whether their legs were straight, whether their toes were pointed, whether they showed the correct body position for any given skill. And yet, we still get gymnasts on the men's side who are beautiful to watch. Uchimura, Shirai, Leyva, Nemov, Artemev, etc. We can encourage beautiful gymnastics while only judging objective qualities.

I know this is radical, and I know that it will be a long time before the international community moves this direction (if they ever move this direction), but I think artistry and dance should not be judged in gymnastics. I think athletes should be judged on objective qualities, such as position, amplitude, and difficulty. I think this would improve the sport, by removing an aspect that causes the sexualization of young athletes.

(Side note: I have no objection to continuing to evaluate artistry in college gymnastics. College gymnastics is as much about performing for a crowd as it is about displaying athletic prowess, and college athletes are adults who have the necessary understanding of sexuality and of their own bodies, and if they want to put their bodies on display in a somewhat-sexual manner, they have the right to do so)

 

[John]

Very interesting thoughts, I agreed let' m towards judging skills and how they are performed. Drop the booty shake.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

No, booty shake is cultural. Not all dance is sexual.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

And I miss the artistry of gymnastics. Routines are less fluid then they used to be because of big skills. JMO of course

 

[GymFan96]

Can artistry be judged without being inherently sexual?

Across almost all cultures, dance generally has a sexual element. Sometimes it's overt, with booty-shaking and shimmying; other times its subtle with displays of flexibility that just happen to put the crotch on display.)

I agree the term “artistic” is unfairly reserved for people with a Nastia or Khorkina type body. I think Shawn and Simone were also artistic. They both moved gracefully despite their size, and it’s unfair to classify them with people like Aly Raisman who are truly all power with almost zero artistry or presentation. I think Gabby is one of the only gymnasts to be fairly recognized for her grace and her power instead of being shoved into one category.

However, I don’t think this biased idea of artistry has any sexual connotation behind it. And no I don’t think dance is inherently sexualized. It’s not like the girls are out there twerking (well except for college smh). In real gymnastics, the Judges tend to reward a balletic dance style over someone who is shaking and shimmying.

If you want a sport judged on pure athleticism by objective standards, there’s tumbling, trampoline, pole vault, long jump, high jump, track, speed skating, etc etc!

 

[gymmomx2]

If you want a sport judged on pure athleticism by objectives standards, there’s tumbling, trampoline, pole vault, long jump, high jump, track, speed skating, etc etc!

And men’s artistic gymnastics
I don’t understand why WAG needs to judge artistry when the men do perfectly well without it. I do enjoy a nice floor routine (Brooklyn Moors’ for example) but I’d be perfectly fine if WAG went the way of MAG with pure skills. Back before my kids were in gymnastics, I always thought that beam routines were weird with all the arm waving and wished they could just do the skills. Now I’m used to it but it don’t find that choreography adds anything to beam routines. I suspect I am probably in the minority with this opinion

 

[MILgymFAM]

I agree the term “artistic” is unfairly reserved for people with a Nastia or Khorkina type body. I think Shawn and Simone were also artistic. They both moved gracefully despite their size, and it’s unfair to classify them with people like Aly Raisman who are truly all power with almost zero artistry or presentation. I think Gabby is one of the only gymnasts to be fairly recognized for her grace and her power instead of being shoved into one category.

However, I don’t think this biased idea of artistry has any sexual connotation behind it. And no I don’t think dance is inherently sexualized. It’s not like the girls are out there twerking (well except for college smh). In real gymnastics, the Judges tend to reward a balletic dance style over someone who is shaking and shimmying.

If you want a sport judged on pure athleticism by objective standards, there’s tumbling, trampoline, pole vault, long jump, high jump, track, speed skating, etc etc!

There is little here that I can agree with or commiserate with. I find Aly’s routines absolutely riveting to watch, which to me is the definition of artistry. By that same note, I don’t see Gabby as particularly artistic in nature. I’ve never seen balletic routines to be prized in regular gymnastics and judges have told my DDs coaches that upbeat routines are scored better. On that note, we’ve actually literally seen twerking in a JO routine.. not to mention we’ve seen stripper crawls and hip thrusts and various other things seen as inappropriate to the genre, in our opinion. I feel like there must be completely different USAGs depending on where you live. Shrug.

 

[GymFan96]

There is little here that I can agree with or commiserate with. I find Aly’s routines absolutely riveting to watch, which to me is the definition of artistry. By that same note, I don’t see Gabby as particularly artistic in nature. I’ve never seen balletic routines to be prized in regular gymnastics and judges have told my DDs coaches that upbeat routines are scored better. On that note, we’ve actually literally seen twerking in a JO routine.. not to mention we’ve seen stripper crawls and hip thrusts and various other things seen as inappropriate to the genre, in our opinion. I feel like there must be completely different USAGs depending on where you live. Shrug.

I don’t want to argue but how can Aly be more artistic than Gabby? Aly can’t hit her splits in her leaps, and has flexed feet and bent knees often. Gabby’s flexibility, form, and dance ability is so much better. Plus her height on bars is incredible; to me she’s the perfect combination of grace and power.

About the twerking, yes I guess it depends on the area. Most of the gyms around me don’t allow anything like that in JO routines. Our asst head coach who is a judge said she will sometimes speak to coaches at meets when she sees too much booty skaking on floor and tells them to save it for the club LOL.

Anyway, Happy Easter

 

[MILgymFAM]

I don’t want to argue but how can Aly be more artistic than Gabby? Aly can’t hit her splits in her leaps, and has flexed feet and bent knees often. Gabby’s flexibility, form, and dance ability is so much better. Plus her height on bars is incredible; to me she’s the perfect combination of grace and power.

I think that might be the whole point of the thread- beauty and artistry are similar in that they’re in the eye of the beholder, and shouldn’t be applied as a point of scoring- some people take exception to one thing in a routine, others another thing entirely.

 

[coachmolly]

I appreciate artistry in artistic gymnastics. I like unique dance elements, nice extension, quality movement, and focus on presentation. Do I think gymnasts need to possess a certain body type or perform a specific type of dance or movement to achieve artistry in their routines? Absolutely not. I also don't think dance is always sexual. I have absolutely seen routines that are, and am not a supporter of them at any level of the sport, but I do not think that is the way it needs to be. But I also agree that artistry is incredibly subjective, making it hard to judge. However, I would hate to see it erased in all shapes and forms because I fear the sport would become a mere shell of the one that I love.
When I'm judging (high school gym), I view artistry as the quality of the movement- not necessarily the type of movement. Is she confident in her movements or does she question every step she takes? Does she have nice posture or are her shoulders slumped and her head down? Does she finish skills nicely or just sort of slop a whole bunch of things together? I have seen some very talented gymnasts who I have nailed in their composition scores because they do not do any of these things. Likewise, I have seen kids with limited skills and not so typical body types really excel in these areas. I think these are slightly more objective qualities than general "artistry" while still encouraging artistry. The dance doesn't need to be complex, nor does it need to be light and balletic. I think athleticism, power, and spunk can be just as pleasing to eye.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I strongly disagree that all dance has a sexual element. You see a lot of dance comps in the USA online and the lives even for younger kids often seem very suggestive. Our dance comps just don't look like that.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

I do think that gymnasts with the long lines and balletic type bodies do tend to be more associated with artistry. However, I think this young lady is a great example of amazing artistry with a different body type


However, I also think there are all kinds of artistry. As long as floor routines have music, etc, it's nice to see a gymnast actually perform. It doesn't have to be ballet style either, I love sassy upbeat routines (might be a bit biased as that's my dd's preference for a routine). However, gymnasts should pick a routine based on their strengths and what they are comfortable. I really dislike seeing wooden routines that aim to be fun and upbeat but just go through the movements with no energy or performance. It's the same for a gymnast attempting a ballet routine when their dancing is just not right for that routine or if they look uncomfortable. I think they will always perform a routine that they actually enjoy and feel comfortable with best.

 

[tucktwisttumble]

I strongly disagree that all dance has a sexual element. You see a lot of dance comps in the USA online and the lives even for younger kids often seem very suggestive. Our dance comps just don't look like that.

THIS!
I wrote my thoughts in the "IGC Camp Requires Shorts/Leggings" thread. here

My stance is: the human body, naked, in a leo, in a snowsuit, dancing, playing piano, doing yoga, or fencing is not in and itself sexual. What has happened in [particularly] western cultures, is it has become sexualized for no reason. Like I said in the other thread - European cultures (a broad generalization) do not sexualize dancing, attire, and bodies the way we do in Canada and the USA.

We have to understand that the kids do not think that they are 'dancing sexy'. It is the adults (whether that be coaches, spectators, or parents, or judges who judge 'artistry') that sexualize these moves & choreography - which is rooted from us living in a culture that everything IS overly sexualized in my opinion.

 

[profmom]

Anyone who says men's floor is not artistic has never watched Paul Ruggeri do a roundoff. The reality is that with the move to open-ended scoring on both the men's and women's side, the necessary emphasis on doing high difficulty skills has left less room for perfecting artistry, which is independent to me from whether a routine includes dance elements.

TTT, while I get what you're saying, in some regards you may be overgeneralizing. I'll freely grant that many areas in the US associate nudity with sexuality in ways that many areas in Europe do not (though "Europe" is a big place with a lot of cultural differences, as is the US). However, my colleagues over there assure me that this does not prevent gender-associated harms or the sexual objectification of women.

Dance itself doesn't strike me as the problem. The problem to me is the incorporation of sexual desirability into the element of artistry.

(And Gymmomx2, I also think beam choreography is stupid.)

 

[3rd_time_around]

And men’s artistic gymnastics
I don’t understand why WAG needs to judge artistry when the men do perfectly well without it. I do enjoy a nice floor routine (Brooklyn Moors’ for example) but I’d be perfectly fine if WAG went the way of MAG with pure skills. Back before my kids were in gymnastics, I always thought that beam routines were weird with all the arm waving and wished they could just do the skills. Now I’m used to it but it don’t find that choreography adds anything to beam routines. I suspect I am probably in the minority with this opinion

Men's floor routines are boring, for lack of a better adjective. A tumbling run, then some flares, then a handstand and pommel horse movements, then a tumbling run, then another tumbling run...

Yes, their skills are impressive and exciting, but it lacks the showmanship of a woman's floor routine. There is power tumbling, if women don't want to do artistic gymnastics (note the word: artistic. That's why artistry is judged in Women's Artistic Gymnastics). This is all coming down to "Why are women and men treated/judged/dressed differently in gymnastics?" Well, because they ARE different. Maybe not the popular social opinion these days, but they are. I honestly don't want to see men doing floor routines like the women do, and I don't want to see women doing pommel horse or floor routines like the men do. The women are beautiful, graceful, artistic and powerful all wrapped up in a wonderful package of athletic skill while still maintaining their femininity. (and being feminine is NOT a bad thing, it's awesome!).

 

[3rd_time_around]

There is little here that I can agree with or commiserate with. I find Aly’s routines absolutely riveting to watch, which to me is the definition of artistry. By that same note, I don’t see Gabby as particularly artistic in nature. I’ve never seen balletic routines to be prized in regular gymnastics and judges have told my DDs coaches that upbeat routines are scored better. On that note, we’ve actually literally seen twerking in a JO routine.. not to mention we’ve seen stripper crawls and hip thrusts and various other things seen as inappropriate to the genre, in our opinion. I feel like there must be completely different USAGs depending on where you live. Shrug.

Upbeat routines aren't better, just different. I've heard that in CA, judges prefer classical music to pop music, and score routines better that follow that. They also like the more balletic style of dance. But, I'm not in CA, so I can't say. I do know that I like all kinds of floor music and floor routines, as long as the gymnast looks comfortable with the music. I've seen gymnasts look bored the whole routine, or angry, or like they wished they were someplace else, and for them it doesn't matter what their music is or how their dance is, because they will lose artistic points because their attitude is reflected in their performance. I've also seen gymnasts with music from hip hop to classical ballet to Christmas carols who all sell that routine by their facial expressions and the joy and fun they are expressing with their dance. I've even seen a huge variety in artistic expression in compulsory routines--some girls OWN that routine, and others look like they want to just die. It's all about their attitude.

 

[John]

@cadybearsmommy That is a beautiful routine. With that said I could do without the arms and all the fluff. I personally prefer to watch the tumbling, turns, jumps and leaps. To me, those skills are what makes me in awe of gymnastics, that is not to say that the transition into those elements should not be choreographed.

@profmom I too think beam choreography is worthless.

@GAgymmom You make some very good points. You make me question my earlier statement about dance. But your points also make me wonder if judging isn't flawed because the music a gymnast wants to use in their performance (their taste) should not reflect in the score they achieve. I guess it is part of the sport that turns some folks off to gymnastics. This year I watch girls stand still and dance in corners score better than girls owning their routine and utilizing the entire floor.

 

[profmom]

Let's shoot some fish in a barrel, shall we? (All in good fun!)









Granted, artistry is a matter of aesthetic preference, but I must say that I find some of these more pleasing than routines by some people widely lauded as "beautiful" and "full of artistry" despite their helicopter-legged twisting, nasty landings, and not-so-nice-to-watch turns. And while we are on the subject, give me a manna like Danell's every day and twice on Sundays over any wolf turn ever done.

 

[gymmomx2]

I think what some people call artistry is just FLAWLESS form, extension, execution. Kyle Shewfelt, OMG. Hands down one of the best floor routines ever.

 

[John]

I find Mr. Shewfelt's routine amazing.