WAG Abuse/dress code tangent: does judging artistry inherently sexualize athletes?

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Exactly! And yet, he was not being judged on any abstract concepts of artistry, but on specific objective aspects of form.

Oh, and I want to make sure I'm being clear here: I don't think there's anything wrong with athletes learning to dance; I just don't like the idea of judging them on subjective concepts of artistry, because it inevitably means judging athletes based on body type.

 

[tucktwisttumble]

because it inevitably means judging athletes based on body type

See I would politely disagree - to me artistry is the athletes musicality & ability to perform the routine. Which I personally find to be missing in a lot of younger gymnasts. Mostly because of maturity and, in my experience, gymnastics rarely placing a focus on the 'performance' aspect of the routines. I often find that is why dancers/cheerleaders (in conjunction with sound technical aspects) score well on events like floor and beam. Their ability to perform thus their artistry is much stronger than their gymnast-only counterparts. Of course there are exceptions.

So a good performance (ex. feeling the music, using expression, interacting with judges/ audience) = artistry. I don't think good artistry solely relies on body type.

 

[raenndrops]

Let's shoot some fish in a barrel, shall we? (All in good fun!)









Granted, artistry is a matter of aesthetic preference, but I must say that I find some of these more pleasing than routines by some people widely lauded as "beautiful" and "full of artistry" despite their helicopter-legged twisting, nasty landings, and not-so-nice-to-watch turns. And while we are on the subject, give me a manna like Danell's every day and twice on Sundays over any wolf turn ever done.

Ioannis and Kyle were definitely artistic. Heck, I teared up a little watching Kyle (no clue why).
Paul had flashes of artistry, but his twisting affected my overall impression.
I couldnt see the last one, so I can't comment on it.

AND, I agree 1,000,000% on Danell's manna over wolf turns!

 

[sce]

@cadybearsmommy That is a beautiful routine. With that said I could do without the arms and all the fluff. I personally prefer to watch the tumbling, turns, jumps and leaps. To me, those skills are what makes me in awe of gymnastics, that is not to say that the transition into those elements should not be choreographed.

I completely disagree with you. She clearly has ballet training, and the fact that she completes her leaps, turns etc. all the way through her arms is refreshing. There are so many gymnasts that don't even know how to stand properly, let alone leap and turn with beauty that it saddens me. To me the skills are enhanced by the artistry.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I do think that gymnasts with the long lines and balletic type bodies do tend to be more associated with artistry. However, I think this young lady is a great example of amazing artistry with a different body type


However, I also think there are all kinds of artistry. As long as floor routines have music, etc, it's nice to see a gymnast actually perform. It doesn't have to be ballet style either, I love sassy upbeat routines (might be a bit biased as that's my dd's preference for a routine). However, gymnasts should pick a routine based on their strengths and what they are comfortable. I really dislike seeing wooden routines that aim to be fun and upbeat but just go through the movements with no energy or performance. It's the same for a gymnast attempting a ballet routine when their dancing is just not right for that routine or if they look uncomfortable. I think they will always perform a routine that they actually enjoy and feel comfortable with best.

There are all kinds of artistry and it’s all subjective. I loved her turn! And disliked the rest of her routine. My DD likes to say that artistic gymnastics is really a bunch of poses masquerading as dancing and I don’t think she’s too far off- the more severe and obvious the posing the better the score. I prefer things more flowy when I’m thinking of dance. That is just me though. Lordy that turn was gorgeous though!

 

[John]

I completely disagree with you. She clearly has ballet training, and the fact that she completes her leaps, turns etc. all the way through her arms is refreshing. There are so many gymnasts that don't even know how to stand properly, let alone leap and turn with beauty that it saddens me. To me the skills are enhanced by the artistry.

That's why we are all Individuals. Because of our individual taste and the fact that a judge is also an individual, with their own taste, is why I do not care for the dance. It's open to interpretation so I prefer well connected skills to build a routine.

I of course have no power but only my opinion.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I disagree with this comment:

Across almost all cultures, dance generally has a sexual element.

If you think that, you need to see more dance.

Some shows that come to mind I’ve seen in the 2 years which would disprove this statement. While some of them had a little romance, definitely most of the dance in these shows did not have a sexual element:

Nutcracker
Hamilton
Annie
Newsies
My niece’s studios 3 hour dance recital
Dance cam winner at the hockey game

 

[sce]

That's why we are all Individuals. Because of our individual taste and the fact that a judge is also an individual, with their own taste, is why I do not care for the dance. It's open to interpretation so I prefer well connected skills to build a routine.

I of course have no power but only my opinion.

Dance actually has a proper technique that can be judged.

 

[3rd_time_around]

There are all kinds of artistry and it’s all subjective. I loved her turn! And disliked the rest of her routine. My DD likes to say that artistic gymnastics is really a bunch of poses masquerading as dancing and I don’t think she’s too far off- the more severe and obvious the posing the better the score. I prefer things more flowy when I’m thinking of dance. That is just me though. Lordy that turn was gorgeous though!

Actually, the posing routines are for those who have no dancing ability, or very little dancing ability, so they get poses. Believe me, they don't score better. They may have better tumbling and skill execution so it may seem like they score better. In college though, they have some gymnasts who just stay in the corners and do awful posing and hopping in place to masquerade as dance, and they aren't getting the spatiality deduction, but they should be for not using the whole floor.

 

[Seeker]

I think this conversation proves the point being made. It’s too subjective to judge artistry as there isn’t a baseline that people agree on.

 

[John]

Dance actually has a proper technique that can be judged.

Agreed, but we are doing gymnastics competition not dance competition. That is my only objection. Dance is beautiful but does judging it within the confines of a gymnastics floor routine make sense? It does not to me. Please this is my opinion.

 

[Olga]

Another thing to add - a couple days ago DD showed me some poses that a 7/8 year old new optional had in her routine. It surprised me a lot!

 

[Tumbellina82]

Although a lot of dance is sexual in origin that isn't always so, and even then what is sexual and what is sexy is not always the same thing. Consider maypole dancing, a spring rite performed around a phallic totem by children around the UK.

I do think there is a problem in this regard with the artistry scoring in WAG, because it is so subjective and because it does so often seem to favour a more balletic body type. As it stands I don't think it is a very useful measure and I don't think it even serves the purpose of encouraging a better quality of movement to music in routines. My mother, who as a theatre designer worked with ballet and performing arts companies a lot, is usually quite exasperated by the breathy commentary on the more lithe gymnasts as they wave their arms around, "So expressive." Expressive of what, she wants to know? Contrast Claudia Frangipane's routine at the Glasgow Commonwealth games. That truly was expressive in that she really physicalised the music. It looked like actual dancing rather than the far more conmon insert dance element here thing. I think to be useful the artistry score would need to be made more specific and less subjective. I.e. it could specifically reward movement in time with the music, reflecting the mood of the music, and that is deliberate and confident.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

I.e. it could specifically reward movement in time with the music, reflecting the mood of the music, and that is deliberate and confident.

The Fig currently has deductions for not doing these things though. It's already in place

 

[duyetanh]

My dd's dance has greatly improved.....her routine has no booty shakes or sexual poses (thank God, she is a bit young imho for that stuff), but it is more flowy and graceful.....
.....consequently, her scores have also improved on floor.....
Her coaches credit the dance...and we agree. Her tumbling, while good, could not cause this improvement. She definitely did not become Simone over the course of the season with her tumbling!

 

[Tumbellina82]

The Fig currently has deductions for not doing these things though. It's already in place

I don't think it is clear enough. It has that deduction for a lack of "expressiveness" without defining what that means and it seems to get interpreted as a sort of fluid balletic movement associated with a particular body type. The examples are too stark I think, with things like a facial expression or gesture that doesn't fit the music or movement, or polka movement to tango music. Physically expressing music effectively is more subtle than that. The pretty pose and wavy arms thing isn't discouraged by that because it isn't starkly oppositional to the music. I don't like the thing about engaging the audience much either because it can just mean picking a crowd pleasing track, and the audience can be engaged by exciting tumbling without the dance actually being engaging and effective as a performance. Then there's a little deduction for the whole dance being a series of unconnected elements, but if it's only somewhat disconnected, or disconnected in parts that would appear to be fine.

I think to actually encourage better dance it would need to be more focused on a few better defined points with more scope for a range of deductions for each. If it does prove too hard to define in a way that can be usefully quantified then I agree it probably is better to get rid of it altogether.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I don't think it is clear enough. It has that deduction for a lack of "expressiveness" without defining what that means and it seems to get interpreted as a sort of fluid balletic movement associated with a particular body type. The examples are too stark I think, with things like a facial expression or gesture that doesn't fit the music or movement, or polka movement to tango music. Physically expressing music effectively is more subtle than that. The pretty pose and wavy arms thing isn't discouraged by that because it isn't starkly oppositional to the music. I don't like the thing about engaging the audience much either because it can just mean picking a crowd pleasing track, and the audience can be engaged by exciting tumbling without the dance actually being engaging and effective as a performance. Then there's a little deduction for the whole dance being a series of unconnected elements, but if it's only somewhat disconnected, or disconnected in parts that would appear to be fine.

I think to actually encourage better dance it would need to be more focused on a few better defined points with more scope for a range of deductions for each. If it does prove too hard to define in a way that can be usefully quantified then I agree it probably is better to get rid of it altogether.

Here is Courtney Kupets showing great dance that is not ballet, nor is she just waving arms and staying in the corners. Granted, this a college routine, but you can see what artistry and dance that fits the music and expressiveness means, as well as engaging the crowd with your performance. There is no lack of artistry in this routine, and it is not ballet or classical music.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Here is Courtney Kupets showing great dance that is not ballet, nor is she just waving arms and staying in the corners. Granted, this a college routine, but you can see what artistry and dance that fits the music and expressiveness means, as well as engaging the crowd with your performance. There is no lack of artistry in this routine, and it is not ballet or classical music.

Beating the same drum here again. That is not artistry by my definition of it. In fact, I didn’t watch past the beginning because I found it so cringe worthy. Doesn’t mean it’s not good or amazing, or even artistic, and it certainly doesn’t mean she isn’t an amazing gymnast. It just means that artistry is subjective, which is the original point.

 

[John]

She is a beautiful gymnast with great skills. I would say the routine has attitude. I think she is corner dancing and believe the routine would be wonderful if you removed all arm waving and leg posing. My two cents

 

[QueenBee]

The way I think about artistry in gymnastics is the same way I look at visiting an art museum. There are lots of different styles in painting - Impressionism, Modernism, Pop Art, Post Modern, Romantic, Renaissance, Medieval, the list goes on and on. It doesn't matter that most of the artists are using the same materials (oil color and canvas). Each style is distinct and separate.

Some people love and/or appreciate all art. Some people have certain artists/styles that speak more than others. It is the same with gymnastics. Almost every routine I've watched in optionals, elite and NCAA has been artistic (I can't say all because after almost a decade of watching regularly I can remember a couple of doozies along the way with a distinct lack of tying music, skills, dance and performances together into a cohesive whole). Some of the routines are balletic, some focus strongly on rhythm, some show off technique, some highlight raw power and control. But they all are artistic. Some of it works for me personally, some of it doesn't.

It sounds like some on this board would prefer a more minimalist approach to floor routines, some a balletic approach, others may appreciate the hip hop inspired routines, other may love the storytelling 'zombie' routine performed by the Belgium gymnast Eythora Thorsdottir. Deciding what kinds of routines one likes best is very different than passing judgement on what constitutes artistry.