Accidental Twist

[Muddlethru]

My daughter has had trouble with her fulls. She twists too early and gets lost in the air (arabians are easier for her) So, her coach has put fulls in the back burner for now. Her coach tells me she has more than enough B skills to meet the Level 8 requirements. In any event, her problem now is she keeps accidentally twisting on one of her passes. When she does her a RO, whip, whip (or backlayout not sure, sorry) she ends up twisting on the second whip. The coach is throwing in another whip, but I am not sure how it solves the accidental twisting. She uses this tumbling pass a lot. Her last meet this weekend, she accidentally twisted and fell. . The coach does not seem concerned and is not addressing the problem. She said, my daughter has so many tumbling passes she is proficient in that the coach feels if my daughter has a problem with a tumbling pass one meet, she can easily switch it to something else. Any suggestions, coaches, gymnasts, parents?

 

[gymdog]

It's probably vestibular. She doesn't know where she is. Spotting could help, or going back to simpler progressions without as much speed (i.e. go from power hurdle and do one whip). But it sounds like the coach basically has this plan and is giving it some time to even out, which is mostly all you can do when these problems crop up. Her vestibular system will most likely mature and develop and she will overcome the issue. This was one of the exact examples given by a kinesiology and biomechanics professor/gymnastics coach (dunno, you know who I'm talking about) to illustrate vestibular issues. If she has recently grown it can cause issues with orientation that will usually work themselves out with time.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

gymdog ^^^^^^^^^^^^ you said it perfectly...and i know who you are speaking of.

 

[Muddlethru]

I apologize, gymdog and dunno, but I am not sure I am following you. I've read dunno's and I believe your previous posts on the vestibular system. I thought vestibular problems mainly relate to fears going backwards, spacial awareness, etc. Are you saying twisting too early on a full is something related to her immature vestibular system as well? Or is it her accidentally twisting during a whip that is vestibular?

I thought her twisting too early on a full was a function of her anticipating and thinking too much about twisting, she starts to rotate almost as soon as she lives the ground. She does the arabian fine and she does not express fear in rotating or going backwards. So, I did not think about it being vestibular. I also thought her accidental twisting was not a function of her vestibular system but merely her being unaware she is pulling one arm slightlt which could be causing the twist. So am I correct in understanding that early twisting and accidental twist
ing is a vestibular issue and not just a matter of timing and improper arm movement or position?

Lastly and sadly, they rarely spot at my daughter's gym. Corrections are are almost entirelt verbal in nature.

 

[gymdog]

So am I correct in understanding that early twisting and accidental twist
ing is a vestibular issue and not just a matter of timing and improper arm movement or position?

Early twisting can just be a timing issue (could be either). "Accidentally" twisting when you don't intend to isn't likely to just be a technique issue (if it was, it would be a major issue and probably lack of conditioning, which isn't what's described). Even if she is pulling her arm, if she's doing it unconsciously, that would indicate difficulty orienting herself, particularly since she could previously do saltos without twisting.

In this case they are most likely related. Vestibular issues aren't always a total fear of going backwards. However, continuing to push skills when there are issues like early twisting, accidental twisting, can lead to falls, injuries, and fears.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

another term associated with the vestibular system is 'transfer'. in this instance a transfer problem. things like whip to full...whip full to whip...whip whip full (all have high rates of speed or linear force) and so forth. the vestibular system gets overloaded by info that it must process and then causes a transfer problem. this is what can cause the gymnast to twist when that is not what they intended to do.

another area would be something like jaegers and double front dismounts. or geingers and bail swings. or deltchevs and arabian double front dismounts.

does this explain a bit better?

 

[canadiangymnast_eh]

Just thought I'd say that I had the same problem as your DD last year but to the extent that I couldn't even do a standing back tuck anymore. Mine came from early twisting that came over from tramp as well as my previous coach refused to help me fix it and just said I was being "stupid" and making it up. After I changed gyms I spent a ton of time going back to basics like backsprings so I could get the feeling of going straight. A combination of going back to basics and spending time seemed to do the trick and I haven't had any problems since. Hopefully your DD will figure out this problem soon!

 

[Muddlethru]

Aahhhh! Yes, I do understand now. Thanks for further explaining. I can definitely see a possible overload of info, dunno. I think they sometimes try to advance her too quickly. And as gymdog says she may be having trouble orienting. Could this be because of too much info also? Do I tell her coaches to slow things down? A coach at a clinic she recently attended told me she should not be doing whips yet because a 10 year old still cannot understand the difference between a whip and a layout. True?

Lastly, gymdog, I think it also has to do with lack of conditioning. It is my observation that her gym does not do enough conditioning. The emphasis seems to be more focused on doing the skill any which way the gymnast can get it done. Another coach once told me, she has good skills but she seems weak. May I ask what part of my post leads you to believe that it is not conditioning?

How do I tell my daughter to take a step back? I am not her coach and of course, she would never listen to her mom. In addition, although the coaches have put fulls in the back burner, they still keep introducing new higher level skills. She is currently adding an arabian in her tumbling passes. I do not know exactly whatnthe entire tumbling pass incudes. Is that a hard skill?

 

[gymdog]

Aahhhh! Yes, I do understand now. Thanks for further explaining. I can definitely see a possible overload info dunno. I think they sometimes try to advance her too quickly. And as ggymdog says she may be having trouble orienting herself becaue of too much info? Lastly, gygmdog, I think it also has to do with lackmof conditioning. It is my observation that the her gym does not do enough conditioning. The emphasis seems to be more focused on doing the skill any which way the gygmnat can get it done. May I ask what part of my post leads you to beleive that it is not conditioning? Thanks.

I don't think it is the case here. I am talking about untrained people (parkour, etc) who just decide to try a layout out of say, a cartwheel and they can't do a handstand...they may twist because they weren't taking off straight to begin with and have no physical conditioning. Although in some ways that's an orientation problem too.

If one side of a gymnast's body was way stronger than the other (not sure how much it would have to be because my left side is significantly stronger than my right - even though I'm right sided in gymnastics, and I have never had a problem with accidental twisting) then I guess that could cause some tumbling issues. However I don't think that's the case...it's not the most likely explanation for what you described.

Although lack of conditioning can cause lots of other problems. And if she was getting exhausted during her passes I think it would exacerbate problems.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Aahhhh! Yes, I do understand now. Thanks for further explaining. I can definitely see a possible overload of info, dunno. I think they sometimes try to advance her too quickly. And as gymdog says she may be having trouble orienting. Could this be because of too much info also? Do I tell her coaches to slow things down? A coach at a clinic she recently attended told me she should not be doing whips yet because a 10 year old still cannot understand the difference between a whip and a layout. True?

Lastly, gymdog, I think it also has to do with lack of conditioning. It is my observation that her gym does not do enough conditioning. The emphasis seems to be more focused on doing the skill any which way the gymnast can get it done. Another coach once told me, she has good skills but she seems weak. May I ask what part of my post leads you to believe that it is not conditioning?

How do I tell my daughter to take a step back? I am not her coach and of course, she would never listen to her mom. In addition, although the coaches have put fulls in the back burner, they still keep introducing new higher level skills. She is currently adding an arabian in her tumbling passes. I do not know exactly whatnthe entire tumbling pass incudes. Is that a hard skill?

i generally agree that that would be correct.

no, not a hard skill. an arabian is yet another way to get in to a full when someone twists early. you learn 1/2 front then 1/2/barani out. it is a good method to orient an athlete that may be twisting early for any reason.

 

[Muddlethru]

Just want to thank dunno and gymdog for enlightening me. Both your posts have been very helpful. And to canadiangymnast_eh, thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[blantonnick]

Curious as to why the vestibular system would be the culprit of such mistakes? The vestibular system when a human being becomes airborne becomes much less effective for spatial orientation as there is no point of reference for balance or orientation to relate to. Human beings while in this airborne phase take orientation and awareness by utilising the visual system. The culprit of the unwanted twist could be due to habits formed with setting with one shoulder lower than the other or perhaps the head 'looking' to one side in an involuntary manner. This usually is a subconscious occurrence that with time with relieve itself. Performance of multiple whips in succession will help or perhaps performing repetitions of whip into back handspring follow by whip.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

huh? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

(S)he wonders why the vestibular system would cause problems in twisting saltos since apparently we don't rely on our vestibular system in the air. (S)he suggests that spotting the ground and using visual reference points would be more useful, and that problems getting lost in the air occur because the gymnast is looking the wrong way or dropping one shoulder, and suggests that multiple whips and back handsprings will help.

 

[iwannacoach]

Curious as to why the vestibular system would be the culprit of such mistakes? The vestibular system when a human being becomes airborne becomes much less effective for spatial orientation as there is no point of reference for balance or orientation to relate to. Human beings while in this airborne phase take orientation and awareness by utilising the visual system. The culprit of the unwanted twist could be due to habits formed with setting with one shoulder lower than the other or perhaps the head 'looking' to one side in an involuntary manner.

Ok, here's what I think I know about the vestibular system. Perhaps dunno could correct my inaccuracies, as I'm sure there will be a few (or many).

The vestibular system is an accumulation of the various orientation inputs our body can deliver to the brain. As we move our bodies we collect information from the eyes to gauge depth, distance and horizon. So in a sense our eyes have a lot to do with balance. We also collect balance input through pressure changes in our inner ear. Pressure changes on the bottom of our feet (and hands in hand supported positions) tell us a lot too, and if I have it correct, in posture changes that are sensed in our rib cages, hence the term vestibular system.

Although any one balance resource can tell us alot about where we are in space, none of them are sufficient on their own. My understanding is that each input is compared to all of the others. The rib cage, or the body's vest is then consulted to reconcile the summation of the inputs with respect to the torso's position.

So the problem with an early or involuntary twist can come from the inability to process input from any of the vestibular contributors, ergo (I love that word) dunno's contribution to the thread.

So dunno, did I come close to getting it right?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes. and even when the body is airborne it is not a question of less effective as Blatonick put it. it's a question or issue of whether the vestibular system can 'measure' what is taking place once the body is in the air. this is why i used the air force pilot and what they must do to pass muster as an example. the vestibular system is a very complex computer.