My DD just moved to L5 in January, and the coaches are having her switch legs on the cartwheel on beam (she used to go left foot forward), which she was told is necessary for L5 and beyond. I'm not questioning them - I assume they know what's best, but I am kind of curious as to what difference it makes. Does anyone know what's different about which leg you lead with? Is it just about how it connects from or to other elements, or is there something about the skill itself?
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Deleted member D3987
My son had to change his round-off leg this summer because he naturally twisted in the opposite direction of his old round-off. It wasn't important yet but they wanted him to make the change now so that when he starts twisting he will be doing the round-off from the best leg for his twisting direction. I think it is most important for vaulting.
I guess. She used to do a cartwheel by putting her left foot forward (when upside down, she'd be facing in the direction that would have been to her right before she started); now they have her putting her right foot forward (and facing the other way while upside down).
Like I said, just curious as to what difference it makes.
I would love to hear the responses to this! My daughter is at a new gym and they have switched her from a rightie to a leftie for everything based on the way she twists. I know this means handstands, cartwheels, etc. but would that mean turns and leaps too? Walkovers? She is definitely more comfortable on the right side but based on her twisting they want to switch.
Well you do see a lot of kaz style vaults in MAG, but I roundoff and twist opposite, and my left roundoff is fairly hopeless. I suppose there are some people who are almost ambidextrous so then it might not be such a problem. There's no way I could do the tumbling that I can from a left roundoff, so I would find switching strange. It would be easier for me to learn to twist a kaz right at this point honestly. I might be able to "1/4 on" left on vault, but the problem is my left side is just much stronger (aiding the right hand down 1/4 on because that is the "long" side - also I twist left) although I suppose that is the function of many years of training and probably wasn't true when I was a child.
I would only change a child's cartwheel on beam if for some reason they do cartwheels and roundoff right on floor but had been doing them left on beam. That doesn't seem likely though. I wouldn't change cartwheels because of the leaps.
A fellow colleague and I were discussing twisting and he brought up a very thought provoking way of looking at twist direction.
After retiring from gymnastics, my colleague decided to take up bull riding. In bull riding, participants are strapped onto a bull by one arm while the other is used to maintain balance. On the first attempt, he was asked which hand was his dominate (right) and which was his non-dominate (left). Coincidentally, he was instructed to strap his left arm down to the bull, and use his right arm to balance. To put it simply, his non-dominate arm was used as a ‘stabilizer’, while his dominate arm was used as an ‘active’, or ‘working’ mechanism to maintain balance. This arm arrangement caused my colleague to question many things about sport and its implications, one of these questions became – How and why we choose a particular direction of twist for gymnastics?
I think the majority of us would concede most of the world’s population are right handed while left handed people are a minority (I am one of them). ‘In 1998, a study suggested that approximately 7 to 10 percent of the adult population was left-handed’ (Hardyck, C., & Petrinovich, L. F. (1977). “Left-handedness”, Psychological Bulletin, 84, 385–404.)
There are many examples of sport adapting to right handed people. In almost all racing sports, tracks go counter-clockwise (in the USA). This may not be a coincidence, rather I think racing has developed this direction due to the fact that when you turn a steering wheel left, you work to push the wheel left with your right arm, or you push the right bike handle forward to turn left – the majority of the population find it comfortable to use their right arm as an ‘active’, or ‘working’, mechanism to accomplish left turns. It seems interesting that the only sport in the USA that goes clockwise around a track is dog racing, a non-human driven sport!
In gymnastics, some nations have adopted a methodological way to respect the right-handed majority. For many coaches and nations, (the former Soviet Union and China) the choice was/is often standard in which direction to introduce twisting – it is deemed left for all individuals, regardless of haptic/optic testing, left is standard. What a profoundly logical stance given the odds of dictating the correct direction could be close to 90 percent correct!
Trusting the maxim that the non-dominate arm is used to ‘stabilize’ and the dominate arm is ‘active’, or ‘working’, it can be perhaps argued in favour of this methodology. Coaches have considered that the majority of gymnasts will be right handed therefore their left arm would be the ‘stabilizer’ and the right arm would ‘work’ across their body to reduce moment of inertia rapidly, in turn increasing angular velocity more effectively. Almost 90 percent of the time they will get the choice correct, but what about those 7-10%? What happens when they learn to twist the wrong direction to what MAY have been naturally correct for them? Do they twist ‘early’ or ineffectively? Perhaps they twist early, or ineffectively, because their dominate arm seems to want to work faster in chronological sequence of ‘wrapping’, ahead of their non-dominate which aids in ‘stabilizing’ or setting, to establish transverse rotation effectively.
What perhaps is most important becomes whatever is chosen, right, or left, dominate, or non dominate – twist direction remains consistent in all skill development thereafter.
After retiring from gymnastics, my colleague decided to take up bull riding. In bull riding, participants are strapped onto a bull by one arm while the other is used to maintain balance. On the first attempt, he was asked which hand was his dominate (right) and which was his non-dominate (left). Coincidentally, he was instructed to strap his left arm down to the bull, and use his right arm to balance. To put it simply, his non-dominate arm was used as a ‘stabilizer’, while his dominate arm was used as an ‘active’, or ‘working’ mechanism to maintain balance. This arm arrangement caused my colleague to question many things about sport and its implications, one of these questions became – How and why we choose a particular direction of twist for gymnastics?
I think the majority of us would concede most of the world’s population are right handed while left handed people are a minority (I am one of them). ‘In 1998, a study suggested that approximately 7 to 10 percent of the adult population was left-handed’ (Hardyck, C., & Petrinovich, L. F. (1977). “Left-handedness”, Psychological Bulletin, 84, 385–404.)
There are many examples of sport adapting to right handed people. In almost all racing sports, tracks go counter-clockwise (in the USA). This may not be a coincidence, rather I think racing has developed this direction due to the fact that when you turn a steering wheel left, you work to push the wheel left with your right arm, or you push the right bike handle forward to turn left – the majority of the population find it comfortable to use their right arm as an ‘active’, or ‘working’, mechanism to accomplish left turns. It seems interesting that the only sport in the USA that goes clockwise around a track is dog racing, a non-human driven sport!
In gymnastics, some nations have adopted a methodological way to respect the right-handed majority. For many coaches and nations, (the former Soviet Union and China) the choice was/is often standard in which direction to introduce twisting – it is deemed left for all individuals, regardless of haptic/optic testing, left is standard. What a profoundly logical stance given the odds of dictating the correct direction could be close to 90 percent correct!
Trusting the maxim that the non-dominate arm is used to ‘stabilize’ and the dominate arm is ‘active’, or ‘working’, it can be perhaps argued in favour of this methodology. Coaches have considered that the majority of gymnasts will be right handed therefore their left arm would be the ‘stabilizer’ and the right arm would ‘work’ across their body to reduce moment of inertia rapidly, in turn increasing angular velocity more effectively. Almost 90 percent of the time they will get the choice correct, but what about those 7-10%? What happens when they learn to twist the wrong direction to what MAY have been naturally correct for them? Do they twist ‘early’ or ineffectively? Perhaps they twist early, or ineffectively, because their dominate arm seems to want to work faster in chronological sequence of ‘wrapping’, ahead of their non-dominate which aids in ‘stabilizing’ or setting, to establish transverse rotation effectively.
What perhaps is most important becomes whatever is chosen, right, or left, dominate, or non dominate – twist direction remains consistent in all skill development thereafter.
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Deleted member D3987
i concur with the above.^^^the overwhelming majority of athletes perform a left round off and left twist in artistic gymnastics. the OP doesn't say how old her daughter is or how long she has been doing gymnastics. it's always a bit risky to change someone's cartwheel. it's much easier to change the direction of a twist.
i guess we'd have to know the coach's rationale. there must be a good reason. though i don't understand changing the cartwheel "for level 5". this makes no sense to me at the moment.
i guess we'd have to know the coach's rationale. there must be a good reason. though i don't understand changing the cartwheel "for level 5". this makes no sense to me at the moment.
@blantonnick - the coaches are former Soviet gymnasts, so perhaps it is simply that!
@dunno - the way I heard the argument (relayed through an 8 year old, so who knows) was that it was more important for beyond level 5, but that it should be changed now (and that it didn't matter at all for level 4).
While she's just started level 5 in January, they're working on a variety of optional skills with her. The coaches seem to be sticklers for every last little tidbit of technique and ensuring all drill progressions are worked through before attempting the skill they're building towards. Perhaps that behavior led me to read something into the leading foot on the cartwheel, where it doesn't really matter much. No doubt I could ask them, but I try not to ask them too many inane questions as I can tell they sometimes get annoyed with parents that try to get involved with every last thing.
@dunno - the way I heard the argument (relayed through an 8 year old, so who knows) was that it was more important for beyond level 5, but that it should be changed now (and that it didn't matter at all for level 4).
While she's just started level 5 in January, they're working on a variety of optional skills with her. The coaches seem to be sticklers for every last little tidbit of technique and ensuring all drill progressions are worked through before attempting the skill they're building towards. Perhaps that behavior led me to read something into the leading foot on the cartwheel, where it doesn't really matter much. No doubt I could ask them, but I try not to ask them too many inane questions as I can tell they sometimes get annoyed with parents that try to get involved with every last thing.
B
BlairBob
I would much prefer to change twist direction than round-off. If they don't have a round-off yet or cartwheel, this could be pretty simple. I don't like it when twist direction is in opposition to the round-off, but it works for some gymnasts.
Why? Aside from a couple things (kaz style vaulting, 1.5 twist tumbling into a step out) I don't think it matters that much overall. The skills you would close off by using weaker tumbling skills would be more than you would likely gain. Like for me, if I was doing a left roundoff or right twist, there would be so much that I couldn't do that I wouldn't be doing kaz vaults and 1.5 step outs anyway...that would have been a major chance to take and I'm pretty sure in my case it wouldn't have worked. But I do think doing a right kaz would be the easiest thing to adapt to of all for me.
Using Blantonnick's example of the non dominant arm stabilizing and dominant arm working (initiating twist) a righty would be twisting left, unless I'm misunderstanding. I certainly don't think that's always the case. The only thing I think is important is to make sure they're twisting the same front and back, because kids sometimes get confused doing barani style front 1/2s and start doing half in, half out or other crazy stuff.
In regards to twisting the same forwards and backwards - the arms change, meaning if you are a left twister than on a forward somersault you would drop your right arm and twist left, on a backward somersault you would drop your left arm and twist left. In simpler terms, ‘The shortened side of the body always leads (twists) into the direction of somersault rotation’ (Gerald George, Ph. D)
I tend to teach backward twisting as only a 1/2 twist then utilising forward twisting concepts, let me explain using a left twister as an example who is right arm dominate –
Before introducing backward twisting the gymnast should understand how to perform a forward somersault in the straight position with a full twist. This full twist should further be understood using body-tilt twisting technique. ‘By tilting the rotating body slightly outside the somersault plane, the gymnast can borrow a small portion of the already-existing somersault rotation and convert it into twist rotation’ Therefore this left twister would, after take-off, drop the right arm (their dominate arm in this hypothetical case) to perform a left twist. Once this concept is developed and refined, backward twisting is then introduced.
Here is how I have taught it – All backward multiple twisting equates to performing a backward somersault with a 1/2 twist into a forward somersault with multiple twists. This methodology can allow a dominate right arm person who twists to the left to perform a backward somersault with 1/2 twist performed by pulling the left arm backward (the non-dominate arm) then use their right arm (dominate arm) to forcefully ‘work’, or be ‘active’, to accomplish the desired remaining twists.
Therefore the puzzle works as such –
Full Twisting Backward Somersault = Back with 1/2 (using left arm) Front with 1/2 (using right arm)
3/2 Twisting Backward Somersault = Back with 1/2 (using left arm) Front with 1/1 (using right arm)
2/1 Twisting Backward Somersault = Back with 1/2 (using left arm) Front with 3/2 (using right arm)
And so forth and so on…The general rule, the greater the addition of forward twists, the more ‘active’ the dominate arm would become.
In using this methodology the non-dominate ‘stabilising’ arm retains the theory of allowing a square transverse take-off and the dominate ‘active’ arm subsequently is utilised to reduce the desired moment of inertia.
In short, gymdog is correct with this statement 'The only thing I think is important is to make sure they're twisting the same front and back...'
I tend to teach backward twisting as only a 1/2 twist then utilising forward twisting concepts, let me explain using a left twister as an example who is right arm dominate –
Before introducing backward twisting the gymnast should understand how to perform a forward somersault in the straight position with a full twist. This full twist should further be understood using body-tilt twisting technique. ‘By tilting the rotating body slightly outside the somersault plane, the gymnast can borrow a small portion of the already-existing somersault rotation and convert it into twist rotation’ Therefore this left twister would, after take-off, drop the right arm (their dominate arm in this hypothetical case) to perform a left twist. Once this concept is developed and refined, backward twisting is then introduced.
Here is how I have taught it – All backward multiple twisting equates to performing a backward somersault with a 1/2 twist into a forward somersault with multiple twists. This methodology can allow a dominate right arm person who twists to the left to perform a backward somersault with 1/2 twist performed by pulling the left arm backward (the non-dominate arm) then use their right arm (dominate arm) to forcefully ‘work’, or be ‘active’, to accomplish the desired remaining twists.
Therefore the puzzle works as such –
Full Twisting Backward Somersault = Back with 1/2 (using left arm) Front with 1/2 (using right arm)
3/2 Twisting Backward Somersault = Back with 1/2 (using left arm) Front with 1/1 (using right arm)
2/1 Twisting Backward Somersault = Back with 1/2 (using left arm) Front with 3/2 (using right arm)
And so forth and so on…The general rule, the greater the addition of forward twists, the more ‘active’ the dominate arm would become.
In using this methodology the non-dominate ‘stabilising’ arm retains the theory of allowing a square transverse take-off and the dominate ‘active’ arm subsequently is utilised to reduce the desired moment of inertia.
In short, gymdog is correct with this statement 'The only thing I think is important is to make sure they're twisting the same front and back...'
My son has some issues with this that the coach is starting to work out. First, he leads with one leg on his roundoff and the other leg on his front handspring. Not sure what the plan is to deal with that one or if it is even an issue. The second interesting point is that when working his back full, he did his first one twisting one direction beautifully and did the 2nd twisting the other way beautifully. From reading this, I am guessing this will be a good thing that he can apparently twist either way...
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Deleted member D3987
this phenomena ^^^ is actually quite common. there were gymnasts that did this when i was a competitive gymnast all those years ago. the biology and neuroscience of sports is still under appreciated and sometimes mind boggling.
for those on here that were/are gymnasts and can still work out, just attempt it. it will require you to hurdle 2 ways. twisting both directions is relatively easy and common for trampolinists. i would much rather attempt twisting in an opposite direction than have to switch my hurdle leg to accommodate a round off and front handspring.
for those on here that were/are gymnasts and can still work out, just attempt it. it will require you to hurdle 2 ways. twisting both directions is relatively easy and common for trampolinists. i would much rather attempt twisting in an opposite direction than have to switch my hurdle leg to accommodate a round off and front handspring.
I got some more information from my daughter (8 year old, so not sure of the validity). She now says that because she leads with her right leg on other elements (split leap, etc), she has to also lead with that leg on cartwheel, etc or she will take deductions. She claims these deductions did not apply in level 4, but take effect starting with level 5.
Somewhat of a less interesting answer, if it is true. I enjoyed the various discussions on twisting.
Somewhat of a less interesting answer, if it is true. I enjoyed the various discussions on twisting.
So tell me where my dd went wrong - she is a left round off, she does her back full twisting to the left, she turns her left arm first on her 1/2 pirouette on bars, she does her blind by keeping her right arm still and moving her left. She does a straddle jump full turn to the left. She is just starting front twisting, but appears to do that to the left as well. Is something backwards for her?
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