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Challenging scores

Discussion in 'Women's Artistic Gymnastics (WAG)' started by mommyof1, May 18, 2017 at 9:05 AM.

  1. mommyof1

    mommyof1 Active Member Proud Parent

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    If a JO coach believes there is an error in a gymnast's score, what is the procedure to challenge the score? Or is there an informal procedure by which a coach can get an explanation of the deductions without requesting a change to the score? Since there doesn't appear to be a standard form for recording deductions and there is no instant replay, how can the judges recall a particular routine when reviewing their scores?

    I am curious because there was outrage over a particular score (not my kid's) at a recent meet and it sounded as if the coaches took some type of action, but the score did not appear to change.
     

  2. skschlag

    skschlag Well-Known Member CBBC Board Member Proud Parent

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    So, there is and it depends on the meet. Smaller meets, the coach usually just goes to the judge and talks to them, and then they figure it out. At Nationals, there was a petition process that they went to. The judge does not have to change the score. But the discussion can occur.

    And, a coach can only discuss the scores of their gymnasts. At nationals, a kiddo went out of bounds, both feet, by like 5 inches. No neutral deduction. But of course his coach is not going to go talk about that. But there was a petition and his score actually went up. Our coach was upset, because it knocked his gymnast down a spot, but there was nothing he could do.
     
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  3. krc

    krc Verified Coach Verified Coach Club Owner

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    N.B. Inquiries are only for start value (or neutral deductions). A coach may feel that the execution deductions were too harsh, but that is not an acceptable reason for an inquiry.
    @mommyof1 Most judges use shorthand and can reconstruct the routine and deductions from their paperwork.

    KRC
     
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  4. coachp

    coachp Verified Coach Verified Coach Proud Parent

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    what the others have said, usually you don't get a change in score. But occasionally they agree and might bump it up.
     
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  5. skschlag

    skschlag Well-Known Member CBBC Board Member Proud Parent

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    Our coach was goign to submit a sv petition for D 2nd day at nationals. But first he asked D what he did. When D said he did a tucked full instead of a lo full, he stopped...it was kind of funny :)
     
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  6. mommyof1

    mommyof1 Active Member Proud Parent

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    What are netural deductions? Are those things such as text errors? In compulsories, I don't think start value is going to be an issue.
     
  7. skschlag

    skschlag Well-Known Member CBBC Board Member Proud Parent

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    Neutral deductions that i know of.....

    going out out bounds or over the lines
    going over time
    not doing a swing handstand on rings (the one my ds always gets ;) )
     
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  8. MaaikeGymnastics

    MaaikeGymnastics Coach Coach Gymnast

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    I knew that you can inquire the D-score (and not de E-score of course). But I didn't know that you can inquire the neutral deductions? Is that a rule in the USA or is this stated in the FIG?
     
  9. krc

    krc Verified Coach Verified Coach Club Owner

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    @MaaikeGymnastics Sorry that was poor wording on my part. To clarify, a coach may inquire about the reason for a neutral deduction. (overtime, boundary, attire etc) Most are obvious, but sometimes not.

    KRC
     
  10. MaaikeGymnastics

    MaaikeGymnastics Coach Coach Gymnast

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    Oh, in that way. Thanks for the clarification! I understand it now :)
     
  11. GAgymmom

    GAgymmom Active Member Proud Parent Judge

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    Actually, even the smallest meets use the petition process. If a coach comes to the judge and asks about a score, we have to tell them that if they talk to us, then they cannot file a petition. Sometimes its just explaining deductions, and sometimes we find we made an error and then the score gets changed.
     
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  12. Gymmom0403

    Gymmom0403 New Member Proud Parent

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    My dd first level 7 meet a few years ago her start value on floor showed as 9.5. They said she didn't do the required full turn. She did in fact do it. Coach filled out a form and gave it to the head judge. Her score was adjusted by .5
     
  13. gymmomx2

    gymmomx2 Member Proud Parent

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    Did you have to prove it? If so, how?
     
  14. Gymmom0403

    Gymmom0403 New Member Proud Parent

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    So we had a video of it but the judges won't watch that. Coach went through where it happened and how she performed it. I guess they took our word for it. I did make sure she really did it before all this took place by replaying video for myself :)
     
  15. raenndrops

    raenndrops Well-Known Member Coach Proud Relative Former Gymnast

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    We had an issue of SV on L6 beam once. Apparently, a hitch kick and a pike jump are similar in judge's shorthand. SV had flashed as a 9.5. The inquiry was submitted and the SV and score were both raised by 0.5 :)
     
  16. coachp

    coachp Verified Coach Verified Coach Proud Parent

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    Okay, lets get honest here... Parents from my experience a inquiry really means. "hey why did you rip my kid off". or "hey why didn't my kid get credit for that". Now what they don't do is allow you to mark a box that says, "hey why did you rip my kid off".......
    Lets start with the "hey why didn't my kid get credit for that". The reply from the judges is usually, "we didn't award this because we didn't see it, she didn't do it, 0r.... oh we are supposed to award bonus for that"? yes this happens.... Not lets address the real issue "hey why did you rip my kid off". The response from the judges is usually , "both judges had the same score". Wait, what? that doesn't address my question which was why was she ripped off..... "well they both had her at a 9.2".... But why? "execution". Where????? When???? on What???? "they felt her routine wasn't pretty enough". Huh? okay, never mind.... OR... And this has happened to me several times, "she bent her arms on her free hip and her head position was out of line". Okay folks, this is a STANDARD response, keep in mind that most kids bend arms on freehip a little and head alignment is also a standard subjective deduction. So this is a standard reply (AKA, hose job). I have actually argued this response on several occasions. "oh really well I actually have the video of the freehip with completely locked arms and her head position". response; "well they look straight from this angle but it's hard to tell, and maybe the judges have a better angle". I am videoing right behind the judges! the end.... This is a problem in our sport. I and many feel that the judges do have a hard job, but we should be able to see exactly where each deduction came from. simply show us. .1 here .2 here etc... After all they did write it down and add it up correct???
     
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  17. mommyof1

    mommyof1 Active Member Proud Parent

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    This has always puzzled me about gymnastics. Based on my experience competing in other areas (sports and non-sports), after my daughter's first meet I was very surprised only to get a card with the final scores and not a form listing all the routine elements with deductions (amount and reason) and perhaps a comment or two.
     
  18. gymdog

    gymdog Well-Known Member Coach Proud Relative Former Gymnast

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    Just to clarify did you fill out an inquiry listing the elements you wanted to know deductions on (which is standard practice here, they don't want a general question) or were these verbal conversations?
     
  19. coachp

    coachp Verified Coach Verified Coach Proud Parent

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    That is from inquiry , they don't do that here or anywhere that I have been.
     
  20. gfgymnast

    gfgymnast Verified Coach Verified Coach Gymnast

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    my coaches did this for my floor routine multiple times last season. My first year at my level i didn't score under a 9.6 and then this past season i would either score a 9.6+ or a 8.9. I don't understand how there can be that big of a difference when i didn't change any part of my routine between the years. And even if my routine was worse this past year why would i score a 9.8 at one meet and an 8.9 at the next when i felt i performed the same on each. I think my coaches inquired about it twice and both times the judges responses were than i had a bent back leg on my switch leap which should be a .2-.3 deduction, and then they said that i looked tired at the end of my routine. first off i don't feel tired at the end of my routine and even if i look tired i don't see what deduction they could even take for looking tired as long as i had good presentation. I wish they would show you the exact deductions they took on each element so i could understand how i went from a 9.6 to an 8.9 with the same routine.
     
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