MAG Compulsory scoring

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Men's Artistic Gymnastics

rosiekat

Proud Parent
(My question is specific to Level 6, Division I where it matters.)

First level 6 meet was this past weekend, definitely some successes and weaknesses. But for the first time, the scorecard had start values marked on it. (At least, I'm assuming that's what SV meant.) I'm trying to figure out where on earth the start values came from. According to the JO tables for all but vault, base score is 9.5, with 0.3 additional for virtuosity, 0.2 additional for stick bonus, and up to 1.5 in bonuses. Therefore, it would seem to me that a basic routine with no bonus would be working from a start value of 10.0, and that other possible SVs would be 10.5, 11.0, or 11.5, depending on bonuses attempted.

So DS's card has SVs all over the place, but the one that really confuses me is pbars - it shows an SV of 9.3. How is that even possible? The only thing I could come up with was if you left out an element, but that would just be a deduction. I'm really, really confused and was hoping someone could either explain it to me or tell me that the judge was wrong, lol. (For what it's worth, I think DS did 2 bonuses, so I'd have thought the SV would have been 11.0.) But even without bonuses, how would they give him a start value of LESS THAN the base score? (I'm not concerned about it for overall scoring or anything, because I do figure any errors were likely made across the board - I'm just confused.)
 
So the way J.O. Compulsory Scoring works like this for all events minus Vault for Level 6:

Base Score: 9.5
Virtuosity: 0.5
Bonus #1: 0.5
Bonus #2: 0.5
Bonus #3: 0.5
Total Possible: 11.5

Omission is a deduction so I don't know how your son could start with a base value below a 9.50 - according to the 2016-2020 Men's J.O. Age Group Competition Program Manual in Chapter 2 - Section II: Sub-Section B it states, "The base score or 'E' score for execution for all compulsory routines is a 9.50 for all compulsory routines [Exception: Some Level 7 vaults - see chapter 6]. In a compulsory routine the base score is a defined number from which execution deductions are taken during the performance of the routine." I also attached the chart from Chapter 1 - Section I: Sub-Section A for further clarity as it lays out all the compulsory levels (...and considering we're both referencing it, lol).
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So I think your son's judge on Parallel Bars was off unless there is something I'm missing. I hope this helps!
 
He screwed up and added a full swing in where it shouldn't have been, so that would have been the only major deduction we saw. He did have several smaller ones (handstand not very straight, etc.). He got a 7.6 out of a 9.3 SV! At most, we saw about 2 points of deductions in a 2 bonus routine, so we were expecting roughly a 9.0/11.0. I will also say that he usually does pretty well on pbars and this particular low score was an outlier for him for the entire meet - he placed in 3 events and AA, but pbars was close to last! I fully concede that it wasn't his best performance, but if the judge really was messed up on the SV, it sounds like he didn't get the credit he should have gotten. (And I'm pretty certain that even a picky judge would have given him credit for at least one bonus if not two - I concede the 2nd one was not perfect, so I'm even willing to toss that out of consideration here, but it still doesn't add up.) I know it doesn't really matter, and it's not State or anything, but it's hard to know how to help him do better if you're confused about it all, lol!
 
See, the problem I'm having isn't even about counting a bonus or not - it's that he assigned a starting value of 9.3 which is less that the most minimum base value given in the rules. (And as I said, I know it doesn't matter in the grander scheme, it's mostly trying to figure out if I'm just confused or if he truly was wrong.) As in, even if he got credit for no bonus and no virtuosity (which I'll fully concede he didn't earn here!), his SV should have been 9.5 or 10.0.
 
no, you are exactly right. He should have at minimum started at a 9.5. Forgetting an element or adding an element would be a deduction, not a SV issue.
 
I know it's frustrating and confusing, but at this point, I try not to dwell on the judging too much even when it's obviously wrong. At his last meet, DS got a 1-pt deduction for not doing a skill he clearly did (per my video and several coaches), but the judge would not adjust his score. On the flip side, last year as a L6, he got a high bar score of 11.8, which is obviously impossible!
 
Yeah, I hear you. And I'm not dwelling on the other SVs, although I honestly think some of them are wrong, too - but I do know that I know very little about this sport and would never dream of raising the question there. It was more a question of do I understand what I thought I understood, lol. Here's a copy of the score sheet, sorry it's so huge and sideways. "Long time looker, first time photo poster." ;) I'll try to post the video but that might be a step in the technical direction I just can't figure out.

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I’ve decided that I just don’t understand scoring at all and I am trying not to worry about it. The only thing I have asked my son’s coaches recently is whether he really should be trying to do the bonus on pommel currently. He is the only one at his level on his team trying and although he can do it most of the time in practice now, he is not at all doing it in his meets. He does the bonuses on all his other events though.
 
No, it's very very clear.



I did, but the question isn't really about deductions here. It's that I think the judge assigned him a start value that essentially doesn't even exist at this level.
But seeing video will help us see if he missed a requirement and what his bonuses looked like. The only way his SV is below 9.5 is if there was a missing requirement. It is particularly odd if he did any bonuses though.
 
See, the problem I'm having isn't even about counting a bonus or not - it's that he assigned a starting value of 9.3 which is less that the most minimum base value given in the rules. (And as I said, I know it doesn't matter in the grander scheme, it's mostly trying to figure out if I'm just confused or if he truly was wrong.) As in, even if he got credit for no bonus and no virtuosity (which I'll fully concede he didn't earn here!), his SV should have been 9.5 or 10.0.
Well, is could have been anywhere form 9.5 upwards. (even 9.6 etc.) The .3 in virtuosity (which is 3 separate .1 additions) and the .2 in stick bonus can all be awarded separately. Did the coach ask the judge about the SV? With such an odd start value, I would hope the coach inquired so he knew what went wrong there. As for showing us video, the easiest way is to upload to YouTube, or some other video site, and share the link here.
 
sce has a good point. I don't understand the below 9.5, but the .2/.3 could be the awarded virtuosity or stick...but not both.
 
Still working on the tech details of video

If memory is correct, he did stick. He definitely shouldn't have gotten any virtuosity points, lol. (I also want to make it clear that I'm NOT saying he had some stupendous routine here - he definitely has a lot of things to work on with it still, and he was even a little wobbly on some things he's generally solid on, probably due to flu.) I've realized that for high bar the SV is also definitely wrong - because he definitely did the giants bonus (and well) - I think he also did one more, but can't swear to that. Anyway, that would mean the SV for high bar should have been at least 10.5, and it's 10.3. I'm so confused.

And no, the coach didn't ask about it, but he's new to us and I don't know if that's just not his style or if he didn't notice it or what. DH is going to ask (nicely) about it tonight, making it clear we're just trying to learn, not protest or cause problems or anything.

However, someone was telling me that there was a kid in our session who protested, and that would explain why at the end of awards they added in something like 3 medals for this one kid. I'm guessing the judges were just tired and human - but I do want the coach to stand up for the kids if there is something wrong, too.
 
3 things, 1) coaches can ask about start values and the 9.3 seems like one the coach wound have wanted to ask about. 2) on
Pbars my son is wondering if he was missing a swing to handstand that could have impacted the start value. 3) for high bar he most likely got caught credited for one bonus and a stick and one tenth virtuosity.

Hopefully the coach will have some idea to help it all make sense.
 
I think I got the video posted in the MAG social group. Since it also shows coach, I didn't feel free to just put it out here for anyone and everyone to see. I truly am appreciating everyone's input - this is a sport that is alien to my whole family, and I don't want to try to take over my son's sport, I just want to understand what's going on, lol!
 

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