WAG Diamond Bars SV Help

[MILgymFAM]

Ok, so I need help. My DD is competing diamond and had a 9.8 SV on bats at her first meet. The SV was verified by the score card, and seen on the judges table by my daughter and her coach at the meet. Her coaches do not have an updated COP (either JO or Xcel) so they’re kinda lost in the sauce with her. Her routine is:

1. Kip (A)
2. Cast (A)
3. Clear Hip (B)
4. Toe shoot/hecht to high bar (B)
5. Kip (A)
6. Front flyaway (A)

They thought that the small catch she does to reverse her hands prior to her dismount would be counted as a cast and be her last A skill, but it wasn’t. Ok, that makes sense. That would be a 9.9 SV though, right? I asked a coach friend in another state, who told me that the toe shoot/hecht is an A release skill, so she’s missing a B circle or release skill and that lowered her SV. If that is the reason though, she’d lose 0.2 (or is it 0.3?) for the B, and also 0.5 for missing the special requirement of a second B circling skill or B release skill. If the toe shoot/hecht is an A, she should’ve had a 9.3 SV (or 9.2 if it’s 0.3).

So we are all lost at the moment. Can anyone with a code tell me the absolute certain value of a toe shoot (5.207 in the code)? Or how she had a 9.8 SV.. or if maybe that was a mistake and it should’ve been higher or lower?

My understanding is that diamond requires: 5As and 2Bs, a skill above 45 degrees (cast or clear hip), a clear circling B skill, a second B circle skill or a B release skill, and a salto dismount. We know the clear hip is a B (or C if close enough to handstand). We thought the toe shoot (https://balancebeamsituation.com/elite-skill-database/toe-shoot/) was the B release and she was set. A 9.9 or even 9.8 SV is no biggie, but the worry now is that it’ll be much lower at subsequent meets.

Help? Thank you!

 

[MILgymFAM]

ETA: I guess that’s not the right number for finding it in the code- sorry about that part!

 

[wandrewsjr]

The toe Hecht is a C, so she is fine there. 9.8 means she is just missing two A’s, so must mean she didn’t hit 3/4 on her cast, which is required at Diamond to get A credit. But she hit at least 3/4 on her clear hip to cover the 3/4 special requirement. That’s a change this year that they can cover the 3/4 special requirement with any support skill.

 

[MILgymFAM]

The toe Hecht is a C, so she is fine there. 9.8 means she is just missing two A’s, so must mean she didn’t hit 3/4 on her cast, which is required at Diamond to get A credit. But she hit at least 3/4 on her clear hip to cover the 3/4 special requirement. That’s a change this year that they can cover the 3/4 special requirement with any support skill.

That is helpful, thank you! She definitely didn’t hit 3/4 on her cast, but her coaches thought all casts above horizontal are As in xcel? She gets close to HS in the clear hip though. And a C? That’s way better than an A and a huge relief. It’s concerning that we get different answers from everywhere. It took 2-3 mins for the judges to confer after her routine and assign a SV and score. Ha.

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

They changed the rule this year on cast angles so they have to reach SR angle to count as anything. I hadn't looked at Diamond, but for Gold, casts under horizontal not only don't count as your SR, but they also don't even count as an A skill. And I believe they made that change across all levels, so silver doesn't count as a skill unless 45 below horizontal, etc. That was my understanding anyway, I don't have a COP. I suspect whether judges follow this will vary wildly.

 

[MILgymFAM]

This all makes so much more sense! DDs plan is to cast to 45 (duh!) and add a front hip circle. Would that work to get to a 10sv?

 

[wandrewsjr]

They changed the rule this year on cast angles so they have to reach SR angle to count as anything. I hadn't looked at Diamond, but for Gold, casts under horizontal not only don't count as your SR, but they also don't even count as an A skill. And I believe they made that change across all levels, so silver doesn't count as a skill unless 45 below horizontal, etc. That was my understanding anyway, I don't have a COP. I suspect whether judges follow this will vary wildly.

Exactly. SR is 45 above horizontal for Diamond, above horizontal for Plat, horizontal for Gold, 45 below h for silver so must hit those at each level to get A element credit. Big change this year, especially for the silvers and golds who are missing a 5 tenth special requirement if they don’t have enough counting elements in addition to missing the cast requirement.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Exactly. SR is 45 above horizontal for Diamond, above horizontal for Plat, horizontal for Gold, 45 below h for silver so must hit those at each level to get A element credit. Big change this year, especially for the silvers and golds who are missing a 5 tenth special requirement if they don’t have enough counting elements in addition to missing the cast requirement.

So not having enough counting elements is a 0.5 deduction? Wouldn’t then missing two As be a 0.5 in diamond?

ETA: never mind. You’re saying their cast with its angle is a special requirement, since their not going to replace it with a clear hip.

 

[coachmolly]

I'm guessing it was the cast not getting 45 to vertical thus not counting as a VP and missing an A skill.
The cast requirements definitely got much more difficult this season (if they are applied, which they were not at our first meet). For my kids with questionable casts I just added an extra A skill they will get minimal deductions on (back hip circle in their cases).

ETA- This page doesn't have all the ins and outs of the the Xcel code for bars, but it does give a summary of the new cast angle requirements so could help your coaches out https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/xcel/cop_errata_ub_111918.pdf

 

[MILgymFAM]

I'm guessing it was the cast not getting 45 to vertical thus not counting as a VP and missing an A skill.
The cast requirements definitely got much more difficult this season (if they are applied, which they were not at our first meet). For my kids with questionable casts I just added an extra A skill they will get minimal deductions on (back hip circle in their cases).

ETA- This page doesn't have all the ins and outs of the the Xcel code for bars, but it does give a summary of the new cast angle requirements so could help your coaches out https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/xcel/cop_errata_ub_111918.pdf

Thank you! She’s adding a front hip and will get the cast to 45. I’m assuming they still take form deductions even if they can’t count it as a skill?

 

[coachmolly]

Thank you! She’s adding a front hip and will get the cast to 45. I’m assuming they still take form deductions even if they can’t count it as a skill?

That's correct, so minimal casts are a good thing.

 

[wandrewsjr]

So not having enough counting elements is a 0.5 deduction? Wouldn’t then missing two As be a 0.5 in diamond?

ETA: never mind. You’re saying their cast with its angle is a special requirement, since their not going to replace it with a clear hip.

Golds and above can use the clear hip to get that angle. But mostly was talking about how 5 A's at silver and 6 A's at gold is one of the 4 special requirements. So if they don't hit the cast and were counting on it as a one of their counting A elements and for their cast angle special requirment, then they are missing two special requirements.(so 9.0 SV) At Platinum and Diamond we just count A's and B's(like JO optionals) so it's just a 0.1 and 0.3 hit off SV for each skill missing.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Thank you! She’s adding a front hip and will get the cast to 45. I’m assuming they still take form deductions even if they can’t count it as a skill?

Also, platinum and diamond can get "extra swing" deductions like JO optionals. So if she goes kip, little cast, come back to the bar, front hip, she is going to get hit with a 0.3 extra swing deduction in addition to form.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Also, platinum and diamond can get "extra swing" deductions like JO optionals. So if she goes kip, little cast, come back to the bar, front hip, she is going to get hit with a 0.3 extra swing deduction in addition to form.

She plans to catch the high bar and do a fhc into her dismount. Not sure how that will look or what will happen with deductions. She may be better off taking the 9.9 Sv (once she fixes her cast- it’s about 70% of the time at 45 right now) than adding the skill. She says that the fhc into the front flyaway works in theory. I am clueless. Ha.

 

[wandrewsjr]

She plans to catch the high bar and do a fhc into her dismount. Not sure how that will look or what will happen with deductions. She may be better off taking the 9.9 Sv (once she fixes her cast- it’s about 70% of the time at 45 right now) than adding the skill. She says that the fhc into the front flyaway works in theory. I am clueless. Ha.

Not bad to play with, seeing what might work, especially early in the season. But I am usually in the "take the 9.9" rather than adding an extra skill camp.

 

[sce]

I have no knowledge to add. But why don’t get coaches purchase the Xcel abs jo cute if points. Seems they are making their jobs more difficult.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I have no knowledge to add. But why don’t get coaches purchase the Xcel abs jo cute if points. Seems they are making their jobs more difficult.

The gym isn’t big on spending money. The mats are held together with scotch tape, for goodness sake. Ha. At least they listen when my DD tells them that they’re wrong about something, and don’t get mad about the outside interference. In all fairness they don’t have an updated JO code either.

 

[coachmolly]

I have no knowledge to add. But why don’t get coaches purchase the Xcel abs jo cute if points. Seems they are making their jobs more difficult.

In all fairness, I have found Xcel code info is much more readily available via the USAG website than the JO code. Within a few months there will probably be enough updates posted on the Xcel website that coaches really don't need a code, especially if they have prior Xcel experience. Even for this season most of the major changes were made public so coaches could just adapt their old code. So it really is a pretty easy way to save a few bucks for a gym.

 

[MILgymFAM]

In all fairness, I have found Xcel code info is much more readily available via the USAG website than the JO code. Within a few months there will probably be enough updates posted on the Xcel website that coaches really don't need a code, especially if they have prior Xcel experience. Even for this season most of the major changes were made public so coaches could just adapt their old code. So it really is a pretty easy way to save a few bucks for a gym.

As long as they’re staying on top of it, outside of the gymnasts and their parents. Ha. My DD has been dispensing SV knowledge for platinum, diamond, L6, L7, and L8 since the changes. They listen willingly, but really they *should* know more than she or I. We are rolling with it though.

 

[Aero]

In all fairness, I have found Xcel code info is much more readily available via the USAG website than the JO code. Within a few months there will probably be enough updates posted on the Xcel website that coaches really don't need a code, especially if they have prior Xcel experience. Even for this season most of the major changes were made public so coaches could just adapt their old code. So it really is a pretty easy way to save a few bucks for a gym.

Um, no. No way! If you are a competitive coach, Xcel or JO, or any other league, you need to have the rule book. In my opinion, it’s straight up unacceptable to not have the Code of Points. It is essential because, as a coach, you owe it to your athletes to know the rules, and to have a way to reference an official source when you don’t know. I’m saying this generally, and not specifically directing this at anyone.

That being said, I’m rusty on the Xcel code now from focusing so much on JO, so @wandrewsjr, thanks for schooling me! I just learned a bunch!