WAG Does your competitive team operate at a loss?

[Aero]

I'm curious to know how many of you have teams that turn a profit. My gym has a fairly large team that is able to turn a small profit. After being a member of this forum for a couple years now and reading pretty much every single day since, I have understood that a team that draws a profit is somewhat rare.

I created this poll because I want to know in more statistical terms what the trend is really like. Please only vote if your kid is in a WAG program, and do not vote unless you know your answer is indeed a fact. Also, feel free to comment on how much your competitive program is subsidized by the rec program, if at all.

My gym is in New Jersey, Region 7.

 

[raenndrops]

We operate our team at a slight profit. The rec program operates at a bigger profit. Gymnastics, as a whole, is the most profitable program at our Y.

 

[ProvB]

Profit, but something like 86% of our total revenue comes from Rec.

 

[Taxidriver]

I’m not 100% hence not casting a vote however I’m under the impression that the rec does subside the team. I don’t know how much by and I’m not even sure it is really separated by the gym as the team coaches also coach rec at different times.
I know when you work out the hourly rate for team and the hourly rate for rec, rec costs 3 X as much per hour. Also we tend to have a lower athlete to coach ratio than rec. If I had to pay the same hourly rate as rec there is no way I would be able to afford gym.

 

[profmom]

I am not voting, but I am fairly certain that XCel is profit and JO is loss but profit substantially exceeds loss. Our lower level XCel team is VERY large but gets smaller as they move up. It's a good model. On a much smaller scale, I can see the same thing possibly starting to happen with JD/JO on the boys' side.

 

[gymmomx2]

I have no clue so I'm not voting but if I had to guess:

• Top group training with high level coaches runs at a loss. Monthly fees might be enough (or not) to pay for coaches' salaries but definitely not enough to pay for their share of all other fixed costs (space, equipment, etc)
• Lower JO groups and pre-team probably break even
• Rec programs very profitable and subsidize the competitive side

Overall it's a good model - it wouldn't be financially feasible for competitive kids to pay their fare share (assuming fair means everyone from rec to national level kids pay the same hourly rate) but having a great competitive program is a draw that brings rec parents in the door.

@Aero - when you say your competitive team is profitable, do you take into account their share of the fixed costs as well? Is your gym subsidized by the city? I know of a couple of gyms that gets their space for free from the city, this would make a huge difference in whether a competitive program is able to turn a profit.

 

[bookworm]

I would guess that most competitive teams operate at a loss just by how they operate ...using my kids as examples, say they are in the gym 25 hours a week for 4 weeks a months and I pay $400/month in tuition....that's 100 hours of coaching for 4 bucks an hour. We had about 20 girls on the upper optional levels. Compared to the rec classes that were roughly $15 bucks an hour, at 2 hours a week ( so 8 a month) , you get $120 a month from that kid ....but there's no travel or meet expenses. I would say our gym had at least 400 kids in rec versus 30 on team so that 's where I think the gyms have to make up the delta and why I was always very cognizant of that during our gym days.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

it wouldn't be financially feasible for competitive kids to pay their fare share (assuming fair means everyone from rec to national level kids pay the same hourly rate)

I disagree. Our club works this way. First hour of the week €14.50, second €11,50, third and up €9,00, no matter what level you are

 

[bookworm]

I disagree. Our club works this way. First hour of the week €14.50, second €11,50, third and up €9,00, no matter what level you are

And I disagree...at your rate, I would pay $932 per kid per month (for 25 hours...and there was a gym we did 36 hours so it would be $1328 a month per kid) ....you wouldn't have a lot of competitive team kids at this rate...

 

[MILgymFAM]

I disagree. Our club works this way. First hour of the week €14.50, second €11,50, third and up €9,00, no matter what level you are

Whoa! How can anyone afford to be on a team?? I struggle at $400 a month!

 

[gymmomx2]

I disagree. Our club works this way. First hour of the week €14.50, second €11,50, third and up €9,00, no matter what level you are

My kids would be doing a different sport if this were the case.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

Training hours are much lower. The kids comparable to level 8/9/10 in the US do 10.5 hours one week and 13.5 the week after

 

[JessSyd]

I guessed break even.

My daughter's gym operates as a not for profit, so they only charge cost recovery fees. It costs more to attend than some local gyms, but it only runs one rec class a day, and only from Monday to Thursday. The vast majority of kids accessing the gym are competitive.

The only rec classes at the gym are for tiny beginners and they are used as feeders for the competitive program. From there kids either go into the competitive program or they change gyms for advanced rec.

I suspect the entire gym is subsidised by the many level three and four gymnasts who each pay a slightly higher fee per hour than most of the competitive program.

 

[coachmolly]

I don't mess with the financials, but I am 90% sure our team program operates at a loss. Our team kids pay a ridiculously low amount for tuition, it breaks down to somewhere in the ballpark of $2/hour. The coaches are paid very low rates, which helps a bit, but the tuition barely covers the cost of coaches. This doesn't take into account the fact that team kids require more in terms of equipment/mats, chalk, tape, etc. For team specific expenses (team leos, meet fees, coaches fees, etc.) the owner just asks the parents to pay for whatever the item/event costs. So if a meet fee is $100 with a $30 team entry fee, the owner will divide the team entry fee by however many girls are on the team, add it to the $100 and that's the meet fee. She estimates costs for paying coaches per meet at the beginning of the season (# of coaches, pay per day, gas) and puts a number on it and then divides it among the number of girls on team. Usually she underestimates terribly and is out several thousand dollars at the end of the season. Coaches also typically lose money on meet weekends because we just get a small per diem and a little thrown in for gas- the rate is the same whether we do 1 session or 5 on a given day.

However, our HC is very upfront that she is not operating the gym to make a profit and she is very happy to break even which we do through very successful rec. classes. She's not really operating with a business model in mind, she doesn't even pay herself. Though if I were running the show I would quickly bump up tuition rates for team kids so they were more in line with what other gyms charge.

 

[raenndrops]

Training hours are much lower. The kids comparable to level 8/9/10 in the US do 10.5 hours one week and 13.5 the week after

So they alternate every other week? 10.5, 13.5, 10.5, 13.5? In that case, 4 weeks would be $564 USD

And I disagree...at your rate, I would pay $932 per kid per month (for 25 hours...and there was a gym we did 36 hours so it would be $1328 a month per kid) ....you wouldn't have a lot of competitive team kids at this rate...

Actually, it would be 932 Euros ... So $1152.41 for 25 hours ... and ... OMG!!! $1642.06 for 36 hours!
.

 

[bookworm]

So they alternate every other week? 10.5, 13.5, 10.5, 13.5? In that case, 4 weeks would be $564 USD

Actually, it would be 932 Euros ... So $1152.41 for 25 hours ... and ... OMG!!! $1642.06 for 36 hours!
.

Like I said, you wouldn't have many competitive kids at those rates...

 

[duyetanh]

Dang...I have no idea, lol. I will have to ask tomorrow.

 

[tucktwisttumble]

The gym I grew up in operated as a not-for-profit.
Lots of volunteer hours required for competitive teams to subsidize costs.
Looking on the website - looks like rec is fairly pricey for low hours. Leading me to believe team operates in a deficit. This is just speculation though.

 

[Redford]

Break even - pretty much all gyms here are non-profit and require an even finacial situation to keep that status. There are slight ups and downs every year depending on whether there was a profitable event or we purchased equipment etc but nothing significant.

Gymnasts pay 2 Euros a week regardless of the hours they're doing.
The club pays competition entries and fees.
Training and competition gear is paid by the parents.
Despite it being ridicously low, the tuition is still the major source of income, after that state and city funds and a slight plus from donations and selling stuff at events we host. (Although most of that money goes into renting the venue, trophies or new equipment right away.)
Coaches salaries are the major expenses along as mentioned with new equipment if we get some and some form of rent we pay for using the school and community halls although I'm not sure how much that is.

Edit to say, the competitive team is DEFINITLY operating at a MAJOR loss, lol.

 

[Aero]

@Aero - when you say your competitive team is profitable, do you take into account their share of the fixed costs as well? Is your gym subsidized by the city? I know of a couple of gyms that gets their space for free from the city, this would make a huge difference in whether a competitive program is able to turn a profit.

We are a privately owned club and do not have any financial connection to the city.

As far as rec kids paying more than team kids, I think that is the industry standard. The sliding tuition scale is what makes it affordable to do team. Our rec kids pay $20.00 an hour, and our kids on team training 20 hours a week are paying $500.00 per month, which breaks down to $6.25 an hour. This is just an example of one training group, and I believe their meet fees and other additional expenses are divided up throughout the year and included in the tuition cost.