WAG Double tuck/pike vs. double full and one more thing...

[Muddlethru]

My daughter is competition ready on her double tuck and is close to being competition ready on her double pike. But she is still having trouble with her double fulls. I can see where the dynamics of the double tuck/pike is very different from double fulls. So I think being able to do one does not mean you should be able to do the other. She struggled with fulls a couple of years ago. She was twisting too early, she was inadvertenty twisting her whipes, etc. She overcame that by season end and has been competing full and a half but she can't seem to get that last half to do a double. She claims she still gets lost in the air and can't land it. Is that still vestibular? Also, any tips for her to get that last half? They can't seem to understand why she can't do it. She also never learned to "set" from her old gym. So that was another bad habit she had to relearn. She said she is setting now.

One other thing, her coach has been trying to lengthen her hurdle on her vault all summer. Any tips on that too?

I am just wondering if the good coaches of this forum might have a simple tip up their sleeve they can share. Sometimes another coaches simple point of view or tip can make a world of difference.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i would suspect that she is twisting the wrong way for her. what way does she round off? left hand down first or right hand down first? and which direction does she twist going forwards??

and lengthen her hurdle for what vault?

 

[JBS]

No simple tips for twisting. Lot's of traditional trampoline work...not tumble track. Make sure she can twist every half.

Here are my progressions...

1. 3/4 back layout to the stomach (fish flop)
2. 3/4 back layout to the back (fish flop half twist)
3. Layout
4. Layout bounce half
5. Layout half (EDIT: sorry...forgot this one)
6. Layout half bounce half
7. Layout full
8. Layout full bounce half
9. Layout 3/2
10. Layout 3/2 bounce half
11. Double full

All of our gymnasts half up everyday...in other words...they must first do a layout...a half...a full...and a one and a half. Then they can work double fulls.

Spot the full...not the half. Watch in the following video...the gymnast clearly spots the full and then her head comes around for the last half...

 

[Muddlethru]

i would suspect that she is twisting the wrong way for her. what way does she round off? left hand down first or right hand down first? and which direction does she twist going forwards??

and lengthen her hurdle for what vault?

I'll ask her about your first question.

Tuck/Pike yurchenko. She's working on layout. Vault has always been her lowest scoring since L5.

 

[Muddlethru]

Thank you JBS. Not sure how her coach does his training on fulls. Most the girls on her level have double fulls. So, I think he just lets them do doubles off the bat. My daughter has been attempting them for a year now and does them into a pit but she said she gets lost. She can do everything up to one and a half. But I'll show her your recommendation. Thanks.

 

[JBS]

My daughter has been attempting them for a year now and does them into a pit but she said she gets lost.

We very rarely work single flipping twisting into loose foam...it creates exactly what you are describing. How is her layout full bounce half twist on a trampoline?

 

[Muddlethru]

Hi Dunno, she said she puts right hand down first and twists right? Though she sounded uncertain. If she is twisting the wrong way, wouldn't it be too hard to correct it at this time? Thank you in advance for your help.

We very rarely work single flipping twisting into loose foam...it creates exactly what you are describing. How is her layout full bounce half twist on a trampoline?

I think they rarely use the trampoline in this new gym, primarily I think because the L9 and L10s have all their skills. I think they use the pit more than the trampoline. I could be wrong. I rarely watch practice. She was just expressing frustration with her double fulls and hurdle. I'll ask er when she gets home from practice tonight.

Spot the full...not the half. Watch in the following video...the gymnast clearly spots the full and then her head comes around for the last half...

If she does a double how should she be spotting?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

no, changing isn't really changing if it's going the wrong way. she should experiment going to the left and see what happens.

a few years ago, i had a girl who could not get the last 1/4 twist on a triple. we spent over a year with various drills.

one day at practice i told her to just play in the pit and see if she could twist the other way. and i'm sure you already know where i am going with this.

yes, 3 months later she was performing a perfect triple full. 2 months after that her 1st competition. sits down her double back tuck, but nails the triple twist. she was in 10th grade. 6 years later upon graduating from college she had only missed ONE. went out of bounds.

so, it can be done. just patience on the part of the coach and willingness to experiment on the part of the athlete.

later i'll tell you about Boginskaya. and how she changed the direction of her twist for her Yurchenko from World's to the Olympic Games. just like that!

 

[Muddlethru]

Thank you dunno. I will suggest that to my daughter. I just don't know how the coach will feel about it.

What do you think about this video on determining how to twist correctly?

 

[iwannacoach]

I'd also want to take a look at the way she sets for layouts and any subsequent twisting because.........

I have a mental model for twisting that uses a set that is somewhat different from that used for a double back. It may be that her ability to do a double back is due partly to a natural set for that skill, and that set won't work for multiples of twist. It may be that she'll need to learn that set, and wait to do that until she's had a reasonable amount of time doing double backs..... cuz you don't want to her to accidently set for a double back when she's going to do a twisting layout, and vice versa.

 

[JBS]

If she does a double how should she be spotting?

Spot the double full...spot the direction she came from. The two and a half she would spot the double and then bring the head around for the last half.

 

[JBS]

Here is more...



1/2...3/2...5/2 are all blind landing when taking off backwards.

Full...double...triple are all blind when taking off forward.

 

[Muddlethru]

I'd also want to take a look at the way she sets for layouts and any subsequent twisting because.........

I have a mental model for twisting that uses a set that is somewhat different from that used for a double back. It may be that her ability to do a double back is due partly to a natural set for that skill, and that set won't work for multiples of twist. It may be that she'll need to learn that set, and wait to do that until she's had a reasonable amount of time doing double backs..... cuz you don't want to her to accidently set for a double back when she's going to do a twisting layout, and vice versa.

Thanks IWC. I did wonder about two things (1) whether she was twisting in the right direction as dunno suggested and (2) if she was setting (as you indicate) correctly or at all. When she was 9 yesrs old training for TOPS she was forced to learn her fulls within a couple of weeks. Her coach at the time told her to "just do it" (her exact words). Since then seemed to always twist early. Every coach that evaluated her when we were looking for a new gym indicated she was not setting. Her current coach is correcting it but he said she sometimes still chucks skills once in a while. Like you said, she may need to spend more time doing her double backs or get used to setting consistently.

The only video I have of her twisting is her first L9 floor routine which was taken about 10 months. howver, it is clearly her worse routine ever! But if you think it will help, I'll pm it to you.

 

[iwannacoach]

Thanks IWC. I did wonder about two things (1) whether she was twisting in the right direction as dunno suggested and (2) if she was setting (as you indicate) correctly or at all. When she was 9 yesrs old training for TOPS she was forced to learn her fulls within a couple of weeks. Her coach at the time told her to "just do it" (her exact words). Since then seemed to always twist early. Every coach that evaluated her when we were looking for a new gym indicated she was not setting. Her current coach is correcting it but he said she sometimes still chucks skills once in a while. Like you said, she may need to spend more time doing her double backs or get used to setting consistently.

The only video I have of her twisting is her first L9 floor routine which was taken about 10 months. however, it is clearly her worse routine ever! But if you think it will help, I'll pm it to you.

It's hard to change the spots on a leopard so it'll probably show me a lot about her natural tendency. Go ahead, send it and I'll get back to you.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thank you dunno. I will suggest that to my daughter. I just don't know how the coach will feel about it.

What do you think about this video on determining how to twist correctly?

i know George personally. we go back a long time. yes, i agree with his tutorial. but then there are several other reasons why kids should be twisting their opposite way. it's just the way it is. when you get stuck, go the other way.