WAG Giant Swing Timing

[GymDadWA]

Anyone have any updated tips on delaying the arch phase of the giant, DD like many gymnasts just goes into the arch and whip stage before she is at the very bottom of the swing so runs out of steam before she is at the top.

Read through old threads and watched all the youtube videos we could find but just can't find that one tip that helps her get the timing correct, wanted to see if anyone came up with a new great way to get that timing down correctly.

 

[GymnastPotterhead]

Idk how old your dd is (idk if it even matters but I think this works better with younger ones) but our coach says to hollow down like going down a slide, and at the very bottom of the slide you tap. She writes it down on a panel mat like this:
Slide
|
|
|
V
Tap
And places it behind the strap bar we work giants on.. so you can always spot the mat in the back swing and be reminded

 

[Aussie_coach]

I like to put a marker in the floor, for the gymnast to see their feet pass the marker before the tap.

 

[JBS]

Anyone have any updated tips on delaying the arch phase of the giant, DD like many gymnasts just goes into the arch and whip stage before she is at the very bottom of the swing so runs out of steam before she is at the top.

What type of giant tap does she do...

• Does she hollow / pike below the low bar and then tap?
• Does she straddle tap (or is short enough) so she can tap whenever she wants?
• Does she tap above the low rail?

Does she keep her head in when she taps up... or does her head come out / does she throw her head?

I have a few things that we do... but I'm not really sure if they are different from the norm or not.

 

[GymDadWA]

What type of giant tap does she do...

• Does she hollow / pike below the low bar and then tap?
• Does she straddle tap (or is short enough) so she can tap whenever she wants?
• Does she tap above the low rail?

Does she keep her head in when she taps up... or does her head come out / does she throw her head?

I have a few things that we do... but I'm not really sure if they are different from the norm or not.

• She is starts going from a hollow to an arch when her body is at 4'oclock just at or slightly above the low bar.
• Short enough that she could tap whenever she wants.
• At 6:30 she is going back into a hollow so tapping with her body below the low bar
• Head is pretty neutral, isn't throwing it way back behind her shoulders

 

[gympoppop]

• She is starts going from a hollow to an arch when her body is at 4'oclock just at or slightly above the low bar.
• Short enough that she could tap whenever she wants.
• At 6:30 she is going back into a hollow so tapping with her body below the low bar
• Head is pretty neutral, isn't throwing it way back behind her shoulders

Sounds like she is very close to the right timing. This video starting at 2:45 might help.

 

[JBS]

@gympoppop That is great video... never seen it before. Never heard of it as the "6 hour rule". We call it the "180º rule" or the "4 slices of pizza rule". The pizza usually works better as the kids understand a pizza.

• She is starts going from a hollow to an arch when her body is at 4'oclock just at or slightly above the low bar.
• Short enough that she could tap whenever she wants.
• At 6:30 she is going back into a hollow so tapping with her body below the low bar
• Head is pretty neutral, isn't throwing it way back behind her shoulders

While it is possible to arch at that time and have a decent giant... it's not easy. I would recommend driving down to below the low bar before the arch begins... that technique will also help her as she grows. My daughter learned by tapping where ever she wanted as she was short. She then moved to above the bar when she grew... then she moved to a straddle tap so we could tap where ever she wanted again. Now she taps below the low bar.

Tapping above vs. tapping below the low rail just means when the tap begins... from the hollow to the arch. While the tap can be changed by changing the time at which the tap begins... it can also be changed by the amount of "drag" a gymnast has. "Drag" is the ability to hold the arch longer.

The tap can also be changed by head position... I would actually experiment with different head positions... not necessarily throwing the head out... but maybe a little bit... like Suni does.

So you have where the tap begins (above... at... below... or way below the low rail)... how long the gymnast can "drag"... and head position. Working with those three things you can find a fix.

The head position thing is not something that many agree with me on... but it's very hard to pull on the bar if the head is in. A good drill is the very small swing to slam the thighs on the bar drill... learn to pull to get that giant going.

For the start time... you can do the kick the exercise ball on the way down drill (flexed feet). Kind of a fun drill... just have a coach hold the ball (below the low bar) and try to hit it out with the bottom of the feet on the way down into the giant. The lower the ball... the later the start of the tap.

For the "drag"... try swing pullovers starting the tap above the low rail. Or the other drill works good to... the small swing to slam the thighs on the bar.

 

[JBS]

Here is a good slo motion drill...

 

[JBS]

A good drill is the very small swing to slam the thighs on the bar drill... learn to pull to get that giant going.

This whole concept is that the front swing of a giant is nothing like the front swing of a regular tap swing. A regular tap swing must go "flat" or it must go "up and then back out" so it can then transition back into the counter swing. A giant swing taps "up" as it never transitions back into a counter swing. This is a super important concept that the "tap to leg slam" or "tap to vertical" drill works very well.

 

[GymDadWA]

Here is a good slo motion drill...

Thanks for that drill and the Ball kick drill, she has always had a tendency to muscle her bars instead of using momentum making consistency on bars a challenge.

 

[gympoppop]

@JBS as my daughter learns new skills I like to follow along so I understand and I also found that video very helpful. Had a heck of a time finding it again though until I remembered he called it the 6 hour rule. Maybe if she gets to L10 I'll have a second career as a gymnastics coach

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on using an early tap. I know Valerie Liukin is a big proponent of it and I'm not clear why. Nastia did have amazing tap swings even though she started at almost 3 o'clock.

What you said about the head being in intrigued me. My daughter is constantly being reminded to keep her head in but it doesn't seem to be working for her and it seems like she is having issues keeping tension on the bar. Could you elaborate on what you mean by it's harder to pull on the bar with the head in? In what phase.of the swing?

 

[GymnastPotterhead]

Not entirely sure about Nastia's early tap- but I think it utilises her ability to arch well and probably hold the arch longer

 

[JBS]

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on using an early tap. I know Valerie Liukin is a big proponent of it and I'm not clear why. Nastia did have amazing tap swings even though she started at almost 3 o'clock.

It is the wrong tap to use for 90% of the athletes 90% of the time. An athlete must have great thoracic mobility and shoulder flex to use this tap long term. Valerie said that he teaches the tap in a natural way without a low rail... he then transfers it to the uneven bars. My daughter started with this same exact tap as she was short and could not reach the low rail... then she started going to the invite camps and working with the national staff including Valerie. Her tap was transformed to an above the rail tap. At one time... my daughter could tap just like the video of Nastia that you posted. It took a lot of work to maintain this tap swing on FIG bars as she grew. My daughter ended up not having the thoracic mobility to do this tap.

Here is my little homemade test. In order to do this tap... have a gymnast lay on the ground on their stomach and push out long. They need to be able to lift their arms and chest up off the ground to 45º or above without lifting their legs or feet. This is what creates the great "drag".

What you said about the head being in intrigued me. My daughter is constantly being reminded to keep her head in but it doesn't seem to be working for her and it seems like she is having issues keeping tension on the bar. Could you elaborate on what you mean by it's harder to pull on the bar with the head in? In what phase.of the swing?

We teach kids that a "tap swing" and a "giant tap" are different. In other words... we teach that the singular tap swing the hits the thighs on the bar is the root of the giant... not the repeated tap swing.

Below is a screenshot of Natia's tap swing (head is in... no angle in shoulders)...

Here is one from a giant (head is out... angle in shoulders)...

This is one of these things that "everyone" seems to agree on... the head should always be in on the up part of a giant... however... it doesn't hold true in upper level uneven bars at all as you can see above.

Gabby Douglas keeps her head in really well...



Others... not so much... just look through all your favorite bar routines in slo motion and see what you find.

If you bury the head... you cannot see the bar on the way up... this is not always the best case scenario. Sometimes seeing the bar earlier makes the next skill easier.

Where is she having an issue keeping tension? On the front swing or in the back by the low rail?

 

[gympoppop]

This has been a very informative discussion for me, thanks so much for your detailed replies JBS! I never realized how different the taps are for a giant vs. repeated swings, but from a physics perspective it makes sense that you would want to angle the shoulders to pull harder on the bar and peek the head out to make the body go over the bar rather than back down. Nastia really throws her head out!

Two last questions: (1) the throw the thighs onto the bar drill, is that basically just a long hang pullover? and (2) when doing a flyaway dismount, the tap is much closer to a giant tap than a basic tap, right? I see that even Gaby seems to throw her head back and closes shoulders a bit (although I know shoulders need to stay mostly open to not hit bar).

My daughter now struggles with maintaining tension on the bar when transitioning from the top of the counter swing to the forward swing. She is still getting used to wearing grips so I think that is a big part of the issue.