WAG Grace McCallum?…… (US Olympic Team Discussion)

[Ginger]

I don't think Tom's an evil villain twirling his mustache, but I do think he's come across as a poor strategist, a poor communicator and dismissive toward fans. There have also been multiple gymnasts speaking out about feeling as though he didn't give them any attention or guidance in the run up to trials when we know he gave those things to others.

I read Shilese's statement, but I didn't know more gymnasts mentioned it? Who else?
And yes it's wrong, and if there are 5 alternate spots, they should either name 5 alternates or explain why they only named 4.
Bad communication, definitely.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

The problem with all of this is that, much as we like to pretend there's an "objective" way to select a team, there isn't.

There is an objective way to select a team. It's called Proscore. Tom said he'd use its results. Then he didn't.

I honestly don't understand why you make such a big deal out of it.
The trials ended up certain way, and the results basically confirmed the current best US female gymnasts.

Proscore confirmed the best team would have had MyKayla as the 4th team member. Tom said he'd use Proscore. Then he didn't, going against what he said. Then he gave us garbage reasoning for his decision. That's why I "make such a big deal out of it."

One woman on the team is another woman off the team. Every single gymnast there deserves to be treated fairly, whether you like them or not. Every single gymnast there has worked their whole life for this. I'd be saying the same thing regardless of who was unfairly bumped off of the team.

 

[JBS]

unfairly bumped off of the team

If someone wasn’t picked for the team… they simply are not on the team… not “bumped off”.

You’re whole argument is that Tom picked the wrong team according to himself.

That’s just a strange argument as it’s not about the athletes.

 

[txgymfan]

Nothing is ever “fair” in a subjective sport. One gymnasts splits or lack of splits are judged more harshly. It wasn’t fair that the fire alarm went off the night before finals. It’s not fair that one gymnast is judged less artistic because of body type. It’s not fair that they don’t all have access to the same quality of gyms and coaches. For every single gymnastics US team the argument can be made that one gymnast should have been chosen over another. Mykala was not treated any less fair than gymnasts from any other team from past years.

 

[Agymnast]

Its a bummer for Mykayla that in the last trials she was 4th but the top all-rounders were not selected whilst in this trial she was 5th when top all-rounders selected so she missed both counts of making the team.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

Nothing is ever “fair” in a subjective sport. One gymnasts splits or lack of splits are judged more harshly. It wasn’t fair that the fire alarm went off the night before finals. It’s not fair that one gymnast is judged less artistic because of body type. It’s not fair that they don’t all have access to the same quality of gyms and coaches. For every single gymnastics US team the argument can be made that one gymnast should have been chosen over another. Mykala was not treated any less fair than gymnasts from any other team from past years.

How about if I'm team director, and I arbitrarily do not choose the best athletes, or the athlete that you personally like. Is that also fair to you?

MyKayla was 4th in 2016, but not chosen because Marta chose what she believed what was the mathematically best team.

She was on the mathematically best team in 2021, but still not chosen because Tom ignored Proscore and went by the AA ranking.

Tom saying he will use Proscore, then not using it, is not fair.

At this point I just think you have a vendetta against MyKayla. There's no way that you're incapable of recognizing the clear, rational argument being made.

 

[RTT2]

How about if I'm team director, and I arbitrarily do not choose the best athletes, or the athlete that you personally like. Is that also fair to you?

MyKayla was 4th in 2016, but not chosen because Marta chose what she believed what was the mathematically best team.

She was on the mathematically best team in 2021, but still not chosen because Tom ignored Proscore and went by the AA ranking.

Tom saying he will use Proscore, then not using it, is not fair.

At this point I just think you have a vendetta against MyKayla. There's no way that you're incapable of recognizing the clear, rational argument being made.

You seem to take the Proscore angle pretty personally- do you work for them?

 

[JBS]

There's no way that you're incapable of recognizing the clear, rational argument being made.

@Ken1978 What argument? You understand that I am sitting here with ProScore on my computer and I don’t need it because a calculator does the same thing.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I have read the Tom Forster quote about Proscore, and he did not say that Proscore was the only tool that would be used to determine the team. He said it would be one of the tools that he would use but I have yet to see a quote, including the one you posted from Gymcastic, that says he would absolutely only go with Proscore. You will never be able to have set guidelines for team qualifications in a subjective sport with so many variables. I think the only definitive statement that can be made from this is that Tom is not an effective communicator. And please keep in mind that when you use Gymcastic as your source of evidence, they seemed to have some vendetta Against Tom anyway because he rightly denied Morgan Hurd’s petition to trials. And drama is what brings in listeners and revenue. They have their own history of problematic statements as well.

 

[txgymfan]

I don’t like Mykala’s character. I’ve been clear about that. She is very open on social media and subjects herself to the public’s opinion.

I’m also sensitive to the “ it’s not fair” whining, especially about who makes a team. After years of working with children, that phrase hits my nerves. I don’t keep close track of scores and I have no intention of doing so, it’s just too subjective and not worth my frustration.

 

[JBS]

In my opinion… there is a valid argument for either MyKayla or Grace. I’m glad they published the selection reports. Seemed to make sense to me.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

One woman on the team is another woman off the team. Every single gymnast there deserves to be treated fairly, whether you like them or not. Every single gymnast there has worked their whole life for this. I'd be saying the same thing regardless of who was unfairly bumped off of the team.

Any one in this sport for a while, anyone who has watched a couple of Olympic qualifier. And certainly any gymnast who makes it to trials knows that the only guaranteed spot is the first spot.

And that’s what makes it “fair”. It’s fair because they out and out say, it’s the at the committe’s discretion.

The only person who appears shocked by this process seems to be you.

Also could you show me where in selecation criteria does it say the team is picked by Proscore.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

In my opinion… there is a valid argument for either MyKayla or Grace. I’m glad they published the selection reports. Seemed to make sense to me.

See, I just read the selection reports and -- I agree. Here, they made a coherent argument! Now, PERHAPS this argument was applied after the fact to save face, and cover up the real reasons which were shady and unjust? Or perhaps these were the actual legit reasons from the start. No way to know.

Anyway, if any of those reasons had been indicated initially, instead of Tom's atrocious tweet, there would never have been an issue. I never had any problem with Grace as a team member. I just wanted a reason. This provided enough of one for me.

In any case, a legit selection report days/weeks later still doesn't excuse the aforementioned tweet by Tom, or any of the fallacious arguments being used to defend it, or to defend the choice, or degrade the arguments of others. So for now I must continue:

I don’t like Mykala’s character.

I’m also sensitive to the “ it’s not fair” whining, especially about who makes a team. After years of working with children, that phrase hits my nerves.

So at least you admit you are not objective. Then, you proceed with several fallacies:

"...the 'it's not fair' whining..." - fallacy. Characterizing an argument you don't agree with as "whining."

"after years of working with children" - fallacy. Implying your opponent and/or anyone who calls something unfair is being childish.

And then the combined fallacy, implying that protestations of unfairness must be due to "childish whining" --

Regardless of the "whining" from the children you have worked with, there is PLENTY of actual unfairness in both gymnastics and figure skating (the other sport I watch.) Very skilled individuals with a lot of patience can and have gone through many performances in both figure skating and gymnastics, and painstakingly laid out the case, element by element, point by point, why many scores were 100% provably unfair. One notable example for figure skating is the Olympic win of Adelina Sotnikova in 2014, her ridiculous gifted GOE scores, and (though circumstantial evidence) her subsequent exuberant embrace with the Russian judge. Disgusting.

After seeing the treatment of Riley which was pointed out in the other thread, and watching all the various USAG scandals, it's clear this sport is also not homogeneously populated by objective, fair individuals who are above reproach. When questions arise, they should NOT simply be given the benefit of the doubt. Clear, mathematical analysis can and should be applied.

Above, gymnastics was characterized as subjective. While perhaps technically true, to me this is certainly a strange characterization for a sport which is now based on a code of points, where both difficulty and execution are clearly and methodically scored and deducted, to arrive at a final combined score.

Either an element was completed, or it was not. Either legs were separated, or they were not. Either a step was out of bounds, or it was not. Either a step was a 0.3 step or a 0.1 step. Etc.

Forgive me but, other than a human's inability to completely see and process a multitude of fine muscle movements, fast-changing positions or to judge with 100% accuracy between what should or should not be deducted, I'm actually not quite seeing where gymnastics should really be called "subjective." Are you just saying it's "subjective" due to human inadequacy to call every aspect with computer-perfect precision? Are you saying it's subjective because judges are lacking sufficient personal ethics, penalizing more or less harshly because of unworthy reasons? Or because there's some other subjectivity I'm missing?

It just seems very strange to me to say gymnastics is subjective, where unlike figure skating and its GOE shenanigans, it seems every single aspect could (ideally) be taken element by element, point by point, to arrive at a final, objective score.

 

[txgymfan]

“It just seems very strange to me to say gymnastics is subjective, where unlike figure skating and its GOE shenanigans, it seems every single aspect could (ideally) be taken element by element, point by point, to arrive at a final, objective score.”

As a judged sport, artistic gymnastics is inherently subjective, as is figure skating. As long as points are given for artistry, female gymnasts are expected to wear rinestone encrusted, barley there competition clothing and no one is measuring split angles, leap heights and leg separations on the podium it is not objective. It could be more objective if music was removed from floor excercise as suggested by another one of our mods.

If you want to support a sport that goes strictly by the numbers then watch the swimming trials. I do. I cheer for Katie Ledecky and Allison Schmitt, athletes I admire in and out of their sport.

 

[gym_dad32608]

I honestly don't understand why you make such a big deal out of it.
The trials ended up certain way, and the results basically confirmed the current best US female gymnasts.
If the trials ended up different way - as I mentioned above and used Emma Malabuyo as an example (and I love Emma by the way - she, Suni and Kara are my favorites) - I believe they wouldn't have gone by the AA ranking.

I guess every international gymnastic competition is different and has different rules, but in most cases, the top AA gymnasts are chosen, especially if those top AA gymnasts performed well all season long. Unless there is a special need to be met - that was the case in 2016 when the team needed a solid AA gymnast with strong bars (Gabby Douglas, who then finished 3rd AA in the Olympic qualification and qualified for UB finals), or if there is a specialist with a very strong, world-class difficulty and execution (but then again, taking a specialist would depend of that particular competition rules, and sometimes it's too risky).

This has gone on ad nauseam. In summary, when you have a 3 up 3 count team format with a 4 member team, going with top all-around scores does not yield the highest-scoring team which equals medals. This is a fact and indisputable, it is always the starting point (maybe not ending point) for putting together a team. Tom Forrester after championships stated as such on the record in interview that this was his plan. Trials occurs and he goes straight down the all-around in contrast to his previous statements. In explaining his decision why his selected his team differently, he basically waved his hand, said only couple tenths difference between hypothetical teams of 4 and we have Simone.

Now there certainly are valid reasons to select Grace, and many posters on here have essentially spoken for Tom in explaining Grace's selection. Honestly, Grace herself on the team is not the issue. Many posters have also simply stated "that's just the way it is", they never communicate with gymnasts so just live with it. The problem is Tom is the National Team coordinator, he should be clear in communication, and if he does change his mind/approach/strategy, he should explain himself. Otherwise, have we really changed anything or just put a kinder face to the obfuscation?

 

[Deleted member 26718]

Well-summarized.

There's another issue which I don't think I've mentioned yet, which may deserve another thread, but it's still relevant here since it relates to Grace being chosen. That is the topic of ageism.

In short, my untrained eye told me that some of the now 32 year-old Chellsie Memmel's routines this year were quite underscored. Very disheartening. If they were unfairly scored, that could be due to several unworthy factors such as the concept of "putting in your time" or lack thereof, expectation (automatic + or - depending on what an athlete is "supposed" to score), or the perception that she is not serious about a comeback, but also ageism.

With the close scoring (one being ahead in AA and the other in team totals) between Grace and MyKayla, was the 18 year-old Grace chosen over the 24 year-old, foot-afflicted MyKayla because of being younger? If nothing else, you can't tell me that age didn't factor in. But if, in a hypothetical situation, all other things being equal, this happens to an athlete in gymnastics, could it constitute an ageism lawsuit? Or would gymnastics be "justified" in instituting clear and obvious ageism?

 

[JBS]

was the 18 year-old Grace chosen over the 24 year-old, foot-afflicted MyKayla because of being younger?

This conversation just hit the point of being useless. I’ll read on and jump back in if someone has real proof of “ageism”.

@Ken1978 Are you basing this fully on Chellsie’s scores… or is there something else that you are seeing that I am not?

 

[Deleted member 26718]

This conversation just hit the point of being useless. I’ll read on and jump back in if someone has real proof of “ageism”.

@Ken1978 Are you basing this fully on Chellsie’s scores… or is there something else that you are seeing that I am not?

Good to know that my discussion and thoughts on the integrity of the sport seem "useless" to you.

I honestly am not trying to start another 9 pages of discussion as to whether Grace was picked as a result of ageism, since even if it happened, I am certain we will never know the truth on it. People can just chime in. But it's still interesting to me to discuss the possibility of ageism in the sport, especially given that this year we had perhaps the final performances of 24yo MyKayla, and 32yo Chellsie who, despite not being close to making the Olympic team, still seems to have been conspicuously underscored:

I, as well as all of the NBC commentators, pointed out that several of Chellsie's routines, offhand I believe it was her final beam routine that, even given the clear errors, seemed to have a lot lower execution than was expected. As someone who cares about the integrity of all sports, I'd be interested in more knowledgeable people (perhaps those who have judged gymnastics) breaking down the score and seeing how far off it legitimately seems to be, or if it does not. I'm not quite sure why I would come here for that, given that I haven't seen a large percentage of what I would call "objective" people in the recent pages of this thread. But, I thought maybe even the people that openly hate MyKayla might not hate Chellsie, and would want to contribute.

Finally I also had posed the open question - can gymnastics be one place that would justify legitimate ageism?

 

[JBS]

Good to know that my discussion and thoughts on the integrity of the sport seem "useless" to you.

Thanks for clarifying that you have absolutely nothing as far as your “ageism”claims go.

I will look for and see if I can find any scores for you.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I think you are just grasping at straws now. Grace did not win the AA over MyKayla because she was younger. In fact, a lot of people felt that Grace was underscored on bars and that MyKayla was overscored, particularly on beam. I agree with them on beam.

This is not a “hate on MyKayla” issue. She has kind of won me over and I was rooting for her to do well. However, anyone with a basic knowledge of the sport knows and can clearly see that MyKayla’s execution on every apparatus but vault is not as technically sound as the other gymnasts. Go back and watch MyKayla’s night 1 beam and then go watch Suni’s beam and see if you agree that Suni was only six tenths better.