gym hopping discussion

[bogwoppit]

I was talking to a friend this morning, she is not a CB'er but has had kids in the US system. She told me of a serial gym hopping family in a Western State (that is as specific as I will get) that had taken their 8 year old through 8 gyms in three years. Leaving mostly because gyms were not progressing their child the way they thought she should be progressed. The Dad it seems is the lead instigator in the moves and he is sure his kid is the next big thing.

Somehow they have even gone back to one gym twice. Not sure how that works?

SO here are my questions.

Coaches - As a coach/owner how much gym hopping is too much, expecially when we are not talking about moves due to work? How long do you think it takes a child to adjust to a new gym and new coaching styles? What do you say to a parent who thinks their child is the next Nastia, but clearly isn't?

Parents. Have you gym hopped? If so how many times and why? Have you ever been told that your child needs to repeat and then left? If you have gym hopped, do you believe it was beneficial to your child and their advancement in the sport?

To all. DO gym hoppers get talked about in the back rooms, either in the viewing area or in the coaches room? Is this talked about at meets? Do clubs all know who the hoppers are in their region? DO you watch out for them?

Lastly, and most importantly, what do you think the effect on the child will be?

THis is just a topic open for discussion, I was totally floored this morning and want to know if this hopping is normal, it just doesn't happen here and I cannot imagine that any child can adapt to so many changes without huge mental issues.

 

[IrenicMom]

This isn't terribly common in my area, but it's happened once or twice in the last years. Most gymnasts seem to stay put at Q's gym. Due to a coaching change, there were 2 that left in late 2008, (I can't remember the timing, but they left together) and one followed suit last year. They are all upper levels. Interesting enough, though, the initial person to leave has a younger sister, who stayed, who is now a level 10. I really believe the older sister's reason to leave was entirely due to an absence in the coaching staff at the time, as she'd been at the same gym since preschool classes. Had she been able to stick it out a few more months, I think she would have stayed. But, the timing was awful for her, and I really feel she didn't have a choice.

The other two that left are a different story. There were some murmurs and hushed conversations about both of them, but there's no outward animosity.

On the other hand, there does seem to be a bit of an influx of gymnasts from other gyms coming into Q's gym. They seem to jump about level 5/6 for girls, later for boys. The owner appears to discourage mid-season changes, but they've been known to happen.

 

[gymgurl]

Ok well in Australia there are limited gyms in close vicinity in my area anyway there used to be 3 now there are two but the other that i don't go to is to far to go 3 times a week (about 45 mins as opposed to 20) so there isn't much gym hopping except we had one girl who quit gym all together and went back to a different gym (the gym i am at).

I know this was a question for coaches but i'm going to put my 2 cents in. I think it takes a while to get used to coaching styles as we just got a new coach and it took us a term to get used to her. If you are going to swap gyms i think you need to give it at least 6 months

 

[gymjoy]

What insane people. Their inflated egos are getting in the way of what is good for their dd. She is just a trophy for them to display, and she better be a big on, or she's not worth displaying...

Parents. Have you gym hopped? If so how many times and why?
We hopped dd once after her first competitive season (L4) because it was clear after watching states that her gym was not teaching things correctly or safely.

Have you ever been told that your child needs to repeat and then left? No. As I have mentioned before, dd did 3 season of L6. One before we moved out west, two at her new gym. It was the best thing for her.

If you have gym hopped, do you believe it was beneficial to your child and their advancement in the sport? That one time we did hop, yes, it was the best move for her at that time.

DO gym hoppers get talked about?
YES. They are talked about by the coaches, the parents and the gymnast. Usually, it is not polite talk, and it often strays to "that poor child" because it is the parents hopping around, not the gymnast. The parents are mostly like the ones you have described in you post, Bog. It is disturbing and sad.

Is this talked about at meets? Yes.

Do clubs all know who the hoppers are in their region? Not just clubs, but the gymnast and even semi-attentive parents pick-up on who are the serial gym hoppers. Even if they are just starting out on their gym-hopping career you can pick them out. The parents come in with touting their dd's success and superior skills, then demand she be placed into a certain level or on the fast-track. They also watch too much, often with a displeased face and lots of low mumbling about what dd is or is not doing at practice. The only people taken in by this act is themselves, but that is all they care about anyway...

Lastly, and most importantly, what do you think the effect on the child will be?
It depends on the child, but it rarely turns out good. Most quit (or run out of gyms in the area). Some burn out. Some are moved on to what their parents think will be a more fitting activity in which their dd can excel.
Some children adjust okay, make friends at each gym easily, and are able to roll with the punches. Other I have seen become bitter and hard edged. They do not make friends at their new gyms for several reasons (imho). One, Why make new friends when you have to leave them. These girls keep their distance from new team-mates. They are nice enough, but aloof. Second, the gymnast reflects her parents opinion of herself. The gymnast looks down on all the other gymnast because she knows she is going somewhere, and they are not. (Who would want to be friends with her? Of course, this scenario can be a self-defense mechanism for the gymnast.) Three, they are so scared and cowed by the parent/s that they only focus on pleasing them which leaves no time for friends, or even to think about themselves.

It frustrates me to see these girls. I just want to smack these kinds of parents.

 

[LMV]

I guess by some standards we did “hop” when we chose not to re-enroll our child in the gym she was at before she lived with us. Her old gym is further away and we had some concerns about it not being an environment that was really good for her. Later today we are meeting with the owners and HC and hopefully coming to consensus on how we all get on the same page and make her gymnastics experience healthy and positive. We’ve needed to do this for a little while but we held off until my husband’s sister who was home for break and training at the gym went back to school and then this has been the first day this week I haven’t been stuck at the hospital [ok, I admit it was slightly tempting to send the amazing husband to do this alone earlier in the week but I think we should probably really both be there] so we set it up for this afternoon--wish us luck!

If we can’t reach some kind of healthy consensus then we will be forced to take her out of this program. There really isn’t another good option any kind of reasonable travel distance other than where she is and where she was so I think unfortunately she will be taking a break if it comes to that. We are currently traveling out of state for some appointments every other week so we might give some consideration to seeing if there was some option for her to some long distance thing where she trained there maybe twice a week and supplemented with some independent conditioning and strength work. That sounds kind of unrealistic though so I’m not really sure.

I’m kind of new to the whole gymnastics scene so I’m not really sure how much this is discussed. My MIL went through multiple years with her daughter on team but she is just so not into any of that so it’s the kind of thing she would tune out as random gossip that her life would be much fuller if she just didn’t give it another thought. I tend to agree with her approach so that may be another reason I’m not really hearing these things. I do know that one of the parents at our daughter’s current gym was very curious about how our daughter ended up switching but I basically ignored all of her leading questions because I don’t want our child to be the subject of gossip and discussions by people who don’t really have any idea what they are talking about. [There are parents of kids on her team who have some idea of her past and struggles but these are people I’ve come to trust as their children have befriended our daughter [or that my MIL trusted as they are parents of some of her daughter’s friend] or in one case that already did trust as we were friends outside of the gym.

GymJoy---
Interesting observation about watching at practice. I needed to watch entire practices in the beginning [to have an idea of what physical toll training was taking because we had health concerns about too much too soon] and even now we still need to do some monitoring of practice for this reason. I actually did a lot of online CME from the gym when I was needing to really be there throughout practice because I just couldn’t sit and stare at her and I didn’t really think that was good. I admit I also used my CME as a bit of a barrier device when a certain prying mom who also seemed to be sitting through every single practice [and I believe still does] wanted to chat and move conversations in directions I didn’t want to indulge.

 

[gymmomof1]

I think it depends on why the gymnast is hopping. The first gym my DD was at had just started USAG L4 team with her and her teammates (about 10 of them) and the coach was also brand new. After a few meets we started to see how different gyms scored and how their gymnasts seemed more prepared than our daughters. To the coache's credit she was learning as the girls were learning and they all would watch the video together and try to improve. We asked the owner who was a coach himself at one time to help guide her and the girls in the process but he was not interested in that. Before states that year two of the girls moved to a gym that had more experience and all levels. I kept thinking that things would improved so we did not move DD. At states the other two girls did really well and my DD did not fair as well. She asked to move gyms. This time my husband and I did our homework as to what type of gym would be a better fit: one with experienced coaches who have a good rapport with the girls, all types of levels, positive atmosphere. She tried out at two gyms and ended up at a different gym than her other team mates because she liked it better even though she would be with girls she didn't know. The next year with the new gym she improved her skills and polish, had a great time with her new teammates and did well at states. She is so happy that she switched to a gym that fits her. We as her parents have learned a great deal about this sport and are here for the ride as she continues on her gymnastic journey--and it has been quite a journey LOL

 

[bogwoppit]

I am not sure moving gyms twice, or for health issues is really gym hopping. But when a family has moved their child many times in just a few years, that is questionable. It is the pushing aspect that scares me the most for the childs mental health. Eight gyms in three years for an eight year old is three gyms a year!

 

[IrenicMom]

They also watch too much, often with a displeased face and lots of low mumbling about what dd is or is not doing at practice. The only people taken in by this act is themselves, but that is all they care about anyway...

This made me laugh. While I've never thought of it that way, as soon as I read this, a handful of parents popped into my head! Based on this alone, I could probably pick out at least 4 from Q's team who would be likely to hop as they progress. They make me shake my head and laugh whenever I see them at pick-up "I saw you do this - fix this this and this. Next time, do this instead. Why aren't you doing this? I've shown you 100 times how to do it *right*." Blah blah blah.

Our post-practice conversation?
Me - Hey! Good practice?
Her - Yep.
Me - Have fun?
Her - Yep.
Me - Awesome! Let's go.

As it is, staying to watch the one practice a month we're expected to watch is a bit much for me!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

that^^^is so normal. let me know when you would like to move my way. i'm not recruiting...i'm just sayin...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I was talking to a friend this morning, she is not a CB'er but has had kids in the US system. She told me of a serial gym hopping family in a Western State (that is as specific as I will get) that had taken their 8 year old through 8 gyms in three years. Leaving mostly because gyms were not progressing their child the way they thought she should be progressed. The Dad it seems is the lead instigator in the moves and he is sure his kid is the next big thing.

1. Somehow they have even gone back to one gym twice. Not sure how that works?

SO here are my questions.

2. Coaches - As a coach/owner how much gym hopping is too much, expecially when we are not talking about moves due to work? How long do you think it takes a child to adjust to a new gym and new coaching styles? What do you say to a parent who thinks their child is the next Nastia, but clearly isn't?

Parents. Have you gym hopped? If so how many times and why? Have you ever been told that your child needs to repeat and then left? If you have gym hopped, do you believe it was beneficial to your child and their advancement in the sport?

3.To all. DO gym hoppers get talked about in the back rooms, either in the viewing area or in the coaches room? Is this talked about at meets? Do clubs all know who the hoppers are in their region? DO you watch out for them?

4. Lastly, and most importantly, what do you think the effect on the child will be?

THis is just a topic open for discussion, I was totally floored this morning and want to know if this hopping is normal, it just doesn't happen here and I cannot imagine that any child can adapt to so many changes without huge mental issues.

1. in my area level 9 & up, there is no coming back.

2. it is hard on the child. they must learn a new coaching style/personality. even harder for the coach who has to learn about the child, what makes them tick and how well they understand gymnastics. but if the child/family left for reasons out of their control, like a job transfer, both child and coach have a relatively easy transition. when the parent leaves on bad terms? and the child was not a part of the decision making and probably didn't want to leave anyway which is common in most cases? complete disaster! they decline and quit.

3. yes it is talked about all the time. and it is also talked about by the college coaches who follow and know the athlete and their career. depending on the problem, there are college coaches that will not go near a family with a 10 foot pole.

4. the higher the level the greater the negative effect.

 

[TumbleBunny]

My DD has gym "hopped". We gave our last gym two years. We really did our best to make it work. I will say ,we tried to make it work for her. It was ultimately her decision to leave and I did make her stay to the end of the sesaon. We had many discussions with the owner and even brought my DD to talk to her directly to try and make it work. But there was absolutely no change on the coaches part that she struggled with. I since then have had two of their coaches concur that she made the right decision to leave. They too could not understand why she was singled out so much by the owner. So in the end I knew she had made a very mature decison. She wanted to focus on gymnastics and not the drama in the gym. She felt the gym she was at, would not inable for her to reach the goals she has set aside for herself. She has no hard feelings towards her old gym and keeps in contact with old teammates. I can not say that this is the case for the owner . But we have moved on and focus on positives of the sport. She now is extremely happy and it has rejuvenated her spirit towards gymnastics. No gym is perfect but she is happy, and then in return I am happy.

I am sure we were spoken about negatively and probably still are. But there are two sides to every story, and dont believe everything you"hear". Beacuse nine out of ten it probably isnt true anyway!

 

[cadybearsmommy]

I can understand changing gyms in some circumstances....if the staff is rude/mean to the parents/children, if your coach leaves the gym and you follow them, or if you are at a gym that doesn't have anyone in higher levels and your child is on track to go to level 10/elite.

We are pretty new to gymnastics, but love our gym and have never gym hopped. If I ever feel like my dd is outgrowing the gym or being mistreated, we would consider changing gyms. But switching back and forth 8 times in three years seems like it would be more about the parent's agenda than the childs.

I have no idea about the gossip, etc, since my dd isn't competing yet, so we haven't hit the "drama." LOL

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

We have been to a few gyms, but I don't consider myself a "gym hopper." DD was at a gym for L4, (Gym 1) but that gym (at that time) only went to L5 so we knew we'd have to make a change anyway. Her best friend at the time said she'd ONLY continue to do gymnastics if she went to a brand new gym (Gym 2) that had opened up. So me, thinking it would be important to keep the "friends" together made that move w/her. Of course that child ended up quitting anyway after 2 months, and by that time DD was already immersed in the gym. This is the same gym that couldn't keep the same coaches for more than 2 months at a time. DD began to develop pretty serious fear issues after L6, and the coaches did nothing to try to help her other than to send her over to the tumble trak to "work on her tumbling." They also began hiring coaches who spoke absolutely no english... it wasn't a very good situation all the way around and she came out one night and burst into tears and said "I quit."

Gym No. 3: We took her to another gym that has a great Prep Optional program, and DD really flourished over there.... she got her confidence back and developed the desire to try to compete L7 (again). So Gym No. 3 was wonderful. She did end up leaving that gym because, at least at that time, if you were on team, you couldn't compete high school as well. I have heard through the grapevine (don't know whether it's true or not), that gym is now, or will be, allowing their team girls to participate on their HS team. I just felt it was important for DD to participate in those extracurriculars!!! Esp. since she will not be pursing a college scholarship for gymnastics!!!

So... she's now at Gym no. 4. She is happy, knew the owner/coach very well from Gym No. 2 and has a great relationship w/her. All I've ever wanted for her is to be happy doing this sport. As long as she is progressing, is happy with what she's doing and is STAYING OUT OF TROUBLE... I am happy too!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Coaches - As a coach/owner how much gym hopping is too much, expecially when we are not talking about moves due to work? How long do you think it takes a child to adjust to a new gym and new coaching styles? What do you say to a parent who thinks their child is the next Nastia, but clearly isn't?

Here's the thing: when a kid has been at the same gym for a long time, sometimes switching gyms will cause a sudden surge of progress, regardless of whether or not the new gym actually has better coaches or facilities, simply because getting a fresh set of eyes on the skills or even hearing the same corrections from a different person can make a world of difference.

But that's just short term.

Long term, it is generally best for the gymnast to stick to one particular coaching style, one particular plan of progress, etc. It's great for them to occasionally go to a camp or a joint workout with another gym or work with a guest coach from time to time, but most good coaches have very specific progressions, and it's not beneficial in the long run for a gymnast to switch from place to place, because she never gets to follow through with the entire progressions as originally planned.

So it is my experience that a gymnast who switches gyms will, in most cases, see some progress pretty quickly, but this initial progress will be followed by a plateau as the gymnast adjusts to the new approach to each skill.

I think that for many parents, this plateau signals to them that it's time to switch gyms again, but that doesn't really work, because eventually the kid has to pick a training plan and stick with it for long-term development. With each gym switch, the burst of progress will be smaller, and the plateau longer and flatter, until the gymnast simply stops making any progress at all.

As for what I'd say to a parent who thinks her child is the next Nastia, it really depends on the situation. But the next crazy parents to be kicked out of our gym won't be the first.

Now, having said all that, some gyms are simply better than others. Some have better coaches who use safer and more effective training techniques. Sometimes it is in the long term beneficial for a kid to switch gyms. But if a kid is switching gyms with great frequency, it will likely be detrimental to her long term development.

 

[Megley]

Eight gyms in three year is excessive. I can only imagine that kind of gym hopping is detrimental to the child because she doesn't have enough time to really get to know her coaches, their techniques, or to progress under their guidance. We've been at the same gym since my child started beginners' rec classes. I can't say we will always be there, but I can't see us moving either.

Gym hopping does occur where I live because we happen to have a fair number of good gyms in the area. Mostly I think it happens because gymnasts are asked to repeat levels when they or their parents' don't want that to happen. That is not always a bad thing, though, as several gymnasts who have come to our gym that way have thrived. Occasionally, hopping happens when someone is unhappy with the way coaching is handled. In the time we have been at our gym, the team has lost a few gymnasts to other gyms and picked up a few from other gyms. I haven't seen anything like the rampant gym hopping Bog mentioned, but I do know that the owners and coaches of the gyms in our area all know each other and they all know when gymnasts switch gyms so there is no way that it would not get around and be known by all the owners/coaches.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Ohhhh, so much I could say, but I won't ......

Somehow they have even gone back to one gym twice. Not sure how that works? I've seen that at my dd's gym, it's the owner being nice or extenuating circumstances.

Parents. Have you gym hopped? If so how many times and why? Have you ever been told that your child needs to repeat and then left? If you have gym hopped, do you believe it was beneficial to your child and their advancement in the sport? No, been at the same gym for 8 years. We've have 3 different owners, though, so it was kind of like hopping--new coaching styles, new coaches, trying out new ways of running things. But we stuck it out and it worked out.

To all. DO gym hoppers get talked about in the back rooms, either in the viewing area or in the coaches room? Is this talked about at meets? Do clubs all know who the hoppers are in their region? DO you watch out for them? OH YEAH!!! Everyone knows who they are and they get talked about by everyone. (Maybe I shouldn't say that, but its true.) And at meets, everyone seem to know that "xx is here! Who's she with now? I thought she was at **? No, she's at $$ now. Why?" etc.

Lastly, and most importantly, what do you think the effect on the child will be? Inconsistency in training, missed foundational skills, resentment from the other gymnasts in the area, never feeling like she belongs, can she make friends? Why? she'll be gone soon anyway.

THis is just a topic open for discussion, I was totally floored this morning and want to know if this hopping is normal, it just doesn't happen here and I cannot imagine that any child can adapt to so many changes without huge mental issues. We've had this in our area and our gym. I know one girl (age 9) who is at her 9th gym in 3 years; another (age 12) on her 6th in 1 1/2 years; another (age 12) on her 4th in 3 years--3rd in a year; another (age 10) who jumped to ours--stayed 6 months--jumped to another for 3 months and is now out of the sport. I could go on, but you get it.

We also had an influx of gymnasts for 2 years in a row from another gym in the area, but most of them are still with us or quit altogether. It was good for us! Yes, most of the moves above occurred when the child was going to have to repeat a level. A couple were for a move, and one was because she just thought our gym/coaches didn't know what they were doing. And they all get talked about, a lot. And it is always "poor child." Our gym has done well in compulsories under our latest owner, since everything has stabilized, and our optionals are doing very well. Last year we had 9 state champions, 11 regional qualifiers, and 2 regional champions. We have a small gym (about 75 girls levels 2-10), but we do pretty well. We aren't the dominators at every meet, but we do have a gymnast competing at an NCAA Div 1 school right now. So we must be doing something right. But some parents think they know best and want their child to be the star and are willing to pay whatever or move wherever, or drive however far to get their kid to the top. Some of our best gymnasts repeated a level and now they are the best ones at their current level. So I don't understand it. I enjoy continuity and feeling like I belong, and our gym is like a family, so I will never understand it.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

so far you have all posited great opinions. you give me hope that our world of gymnastics is still for the most part sane. and geoff, very astute assessment i might add. maybe you should change your name to "old soul"...

 

[MdGymMom01]

I can't even imagine the transition adjustments for 8 gyms in 3 years!!! That's insane!!! I understand having to switch gyms due to job changes, financial reasons or coaches leaving but even with those reasons, that much transition for a young child has got to be devastating. With that many moves, where is the trust development between coach and gymnast?? The poor kid isn't at a gym long enough for trust to be even established if she is being moved that many times. I wouldn't be surprised if this gymnast also has some serious fear issues or mental blocks happening because of all this instability.

 

[ek2]

Very interesting discussion.
Our dd has been to three gyms over the course of 7 years, including rec classes. The first gym has an awesome team program, the girls win, win, win and our dd progressed very well. However, gym number 1 had a very negative coaching style and culture. After her first year on team wow did her personality change... and not for the better. So we switched to gym #2, even though the program was not as successful and the gymnastics not quite as polished. It was a good solid gym in the beginning. However, after a couple of years the coaches attitudes changed. DD got injured and they expected her to continue working out on that injury. Again, we saw the culture changing, she was not happy with the way she was being coached so we moved her to gym #3. So far, the culture is very positive, solid coaching and she has thrived.
All that said, she has friends that have never switched gyms. Their parents complain all the time about how bad things are etc. In IMO if the coaching is good, the culture is positive but firm, and the coaches have a longevity plan for ALL the team then it is much better to stay the course. BTW, in hindsight, dd is now a teenager, she would tell you that each move was right for her at the time. One day all of our kiddos will no longer be competitive gymnasts whether level 5, level 10 or beyond. The most important thing is their well being physically and emotionally.

 

[gymdog]

I know of one extreme family like that. It's not a pretty situation. The gymnast is actually quite good and pretty normal (and has actually made it the long haul), considering, though. I can't imagine it's easy for her internally though, I don't really know.

I had to switch gyms once (it really wasn't by choice though, complicated situation but we were actually encouraged to, essentially, because things were really uncertain). I really wish I didn't. It was the worst thing possible for me at that timing. I completely regressed skillwise. When I could, I went back to my old gym (because of the previous circumstances there wasn't an issue with that) and got back all the skills and more, but by then it was kind of too little, too late. I am still glad I had that time though because I really appreciated it.

So, I don't think it should be taken lightly, although I suspect if I were younger and a lower level it wouldn't have been as devastating for me. I'm not sure there was any good way for my situation to work out and I think when I switched I made the mistake of not trying out enough gyms to find one closer to my old gym. I pretty much went to the first one I tried because I was upset. There's nothing wrong with it but it was very different than what I was used to (more laid back). If you do come to that point I would say my best advice then is to look at ALL the options first (even the current one, even if means possibly not even being able to compete for awhile) and not make any rash decisions. Because actually if I was going to change the decision I probably would have just sat through the uncertainty period even if it meant not really competing or something and then I think I would have been more happy in the end, once things picked up again.