Parents Gym owner also a judge at meet

[NY Dad]

From an outsiders point of view (since my daughter doesn't compete yet) that seems less fair

 

[NY Dad]

In my post I was referring to this

My daughter claims that her gym's owner was judging at one meet and swapped events with another judge mid-session to avoid judging her own team. As in, say the gym owner was judging floor, switched with one of the vault judges when her own team was up on floor, and then switched back. I am skeptical that this actually happened because it would mean that not all the gymnasts in the session were judged by exactly the same panels on the same events, which would mean that the scores wouldn't be 100% comparable. Is it possible that this really happened?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

My daughter claims that her gym's owner was judging at one meet and swapped events with another judge mid-session to avoid judging her own team. As in, say the gym owner was judging floor, switched with one of the vault judges when her own team was up on floor, and then switched back. I am skeptical that this actually happened because it would mean that not all the gymnasts in the session were judged by exactly the same panels on the same events, which would mean that the scores wouldn't be 100% comparable. Is it possible that this really happened?

I think that would bother me more. I at least expect all the kids at a particular meet and level to be judged by the same judges. At least that way on at any given meet they are judged the same.

 

[GYM0M]

I'm sorry, it was a rhetorical question... I do think there was some favoritism to the hosting gym. I would not say the winners didn't deserve it, but some amount of favoritism, yes.

There are a number of things that could appear to be favoritism, but they really aren't.
For instance, it's pretty common for individual judges to be known to be sticklers for different things, like leap angles, tight legs, or pointed toes, etc. Home gymnasts will have an advantage of knowing their coach/judge's particular emphasis.

If the winners deserved it, they deserved it, & scores don't matter, favoritism doesn't matter. I was once told it's the judges job to award the highest score to the best routine during the session, which may or may not be the correct amt of 'deductions.' It just is what it is, no matter what.

 

[mommyof1]

I think that would bother me more. I at least expect all the kids at a particular meet and level to be judged by the same judges. At least that way on at any given meet they are judged the same.

My sentiments exactly, which is why I'm not sure that Tink is relating the story correctly. I can't believe the rules would allow that.

 

[twinmomma]

I think that would bother me more. I at least expect all the kids at a particular meet and level to be judged by the same judges. At least that way on at any given meet they are judged the same.

Why would that bother you more? The code of points is what it is. The deductions are what they are. It really shouldn't matter who judges them if they are properly trained. Do I think people bring their biases with them? Yep, and I've seen it directly to my daughter's detriment. However, in theory, it shouldn't matter. Our judges cup meet has different judges on each event every session. My daughter has been judged by two former coaches of hers more than once, and honestly I think they are harder on her than not.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Why would that bother you more? The code of points is what it is. The deductions are what they are. It really shouldn't matter who judges them if they are properly trained. Do I think people bring their biases with them? Yep, and I've seen it directly to my daughter's detriment. However, in theory, it shouldn't matter. Our judges cup meet has different judges on each event every session. My daughter has been judged by two former coaches of hers more than once, and honestly I think they are harder on her than not.

Because no 2 people see things the same way. The fairest way would be all the kids judged with at least the exact same set of eyes for the same event.

Refs are properly trained and in professional sports they review plays and reverse calls all the time. They do this because they recognize everyone is human and can get it wrong.
I recognize that is not realistic for amateur gymnastics.

And again, perceived or actually harder is not good either. That is why I don't like it. I get it, it happens. And I don't have to like it.

 

[shelovestoflip]

To the original poster, how old is your daughter/what level?

In our region, there are at least a few very well know gym owners who are also judges. Can't off the top of my head recall if they judge their home meet. Yet I know they judge meets their girls compete in.

Truth is, by the time the girls are at the higher levels (9/10), they are older and have been around a while. They all know what a 'good' routine looks like and I'd say it would be challenging for a judge to really show a lot of favoritism. Whereas at the lower compulsary levels, the girls are so young and they don't really pay attention as much. So then, at times, parents worry too much about it for them!

I also think that at this level when it comes down to it, the coaches will speak to judges if they are concerned about a score.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, no, I dont' think it really matters in the greater picture of things.

 

[CoachTodd]

All of what is being said here is fine and good. I have noted that gyms with Judge owners seem to score far better within the state than they do outside the state. Meets outside the state seem to even out the scores for some of the other gyms. I'm not exactly sure why. We do have some of the harder judges in the region so basically, the gyms that normally do well here, still do well but the ones that do OK here do just as well as the other gyms outside the state.

Just an observation

 

[raenndrops]

I think that would bother me more. I at least expect all the kids at a particular meet and level to be judged by the same judges. At least that way on at any given meet they are judged the same.

Its not really much different than a judge having to leave in the middle of a session and having someone else step in to judge the event in her place. We have had THAT happen before.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Its not really much different than a judge having to leave in the middle of a session and having someone else step in to judge the event in her place. We have had THAT happen before.

I get it happens. And I don't like it. I have to live/deal with it. And clearly I do. I don't have to like it. And never will

I'm sure everyone has a billion examples I still won't like. So time to be done.

 

[Lilou]

Really interesting discussion and thanks to everyone offering their different points of view. My gymnast is at the lower levels and this was her first real meet so seeing the gym owner judging just really stood out to me. My daughter did fine and wasn't close to placing so this is really not about a personal situation, but more of others I saw and seeing how some tripped and forgot their routines and they placed higher than girls who from my naked eye seemed to be fine and got through their program with straight legs, pointed toes, etc... some of the basic things I hear are good. But anyway, it's a long road in this sport... Thx!

 

[3rd_time_around]

My daughter claims that her gym's owner was judging at one meet and swapped events with another judge mid-session to avoid judging her own team. As in, say the gym owner was judging floor, switched with one of the vault judges when her own team was up on floor, and then switched back. I am skeptical that this actually happened because it would mean that not all the gymnasts in the session were judged by exactly the same panels on the same events, which would mean that the scores wouldn't be 100% comparable. Is it possible that this really happened?

Yes, judges have to judge the same event for the same level the entire meet. If you have AAU 3 and USA 3, the judge can switch between sessions, but if during the same session, the judge must judge the event for all the girls on the same level.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Yes but they shouldn't necessarily be judging the meets their kid or gyms are at.

It almost can't be avoided, and it really is very hard to judge with a bias. There are 2 judges, and if they are both affiliated at the same meet, they can't be on the same panel, and they can't be chief judge if they are affiliated. The chief judge has the final say on scores and decisions and any other issues. Once those girls hit the floor, all we see are their movements.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I get it happens. And I don't like it. I have to live/deal with it. And clearly I do. I don't have to like it. And never will

I'm sure everyone has a billion examples I still won't like. So time to be done.

Not trying to start anything, but why are you always so abrasive? This is a discussion forum, and no one is getting mean or being anything other than civil. It's a good discussion, and a lot of learning is going on. We don't need to be done.

 

[gymdog]

My daughter claims that her gym's owner was judging at one meet and swapped events with another judge mid-session to avoid judging her own team. As in, say the gym owner was judging floor, switched with one of the vault judges when her own team was up on floor, and then switched back. I am skeptical that this actually happened because it would mean that not all the gymnasts in the session were judged by exactly the same panels on the same events, which would mean that the scores wouldn't be 100% comparable. Is it possible that this really happened?

No, I don't think that happened.

 

[vbdb]

Our owner occasionally pitches in and judges if they can't get enough from elsewhere. She's a brevet judge and our girls are usually excited for her to judge them. My DD's coach also judges occasionally too, the girls never want her to judge them because she knows exactly where they have weaknesses and watches for things other judges might miss lol.
Our gym often wins at our meets but it's just because our kids are really well prepared, they also win at many away meets too.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Just curious if this is normal for gymnastics. At a recent meet, the owner of the hosting gym was also a judge for the meet. This seems, in my humble opinion, to be a conflict of interest, but in gymnastics is this just common and normal?
All of the top 3 (sometimes 4) spots in all results were gymnasts from the hosting gym. coincidence or not?
Thank you.

Should not be allowed. I personally think that ANY judge with ANY affiliation to ANY gym should not be allowed to judge that event. In my option is should go further than that. What is to stop a judge who just lost kids to another gym down the street from being bias? nothing....

 

[JumpingBean]

My dd's friend is in Rhythmic and there events really seem prone to favoritism. So much so, that it is a common practice to invite judges to do private session with a gym's gymnasts and review and critique their routines in advance, just so they look favorably on the kids at meets. At least this doesn't seem to be a common practice in artistic, or at least I hope not, since my dd is still on preteam.

 

[MILgymFAM]

My dd's friend is in Rhythmic and there events really seem prone to favoritism. So much so, that it is a common practice to invite judges to do private session with a gym's gymnasts and review and critique their routines in advance, just so they look favorably on the kids at meets. At least this doesn't seem to be a common practice in artistic, or at least I hope not, since my dd is still on preteam.

I've seen that happen twice in artistic. Once before the first real meet of the season when a former coach, and known judge at the upcoming meet, was invited to come and observe a practice and discuss what to focus on. The second time (different gym) the judge for an in-house score out meet was brought in for a couple of privates with the girls who were scoring out. One of the girls didn't even have to do full routines at the score out- she just did the skills because the judge "knew she could do it". Quite frankly I'm surprised that so many people believe so adamantly that everyone follows the rules.