Our little gymnast was in a competition recently and after conclusion, the local gym basically took 1st-4th in every category even though the routines weren’t executed better than any other gyms. Has anyone else experienced similar? Props to their girls but to me it seems almost impossible for out of 8 teams, one local team swept everything strictly based on merit
For Parents Has anybody else dealt with judges showing local teams more leniency?
- Thread starter FriendlySpiderman
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You are going to need to let that go.
This is a very subjective sport.
These things happen and long term. It simply doesn’t matter.
Scores are relative.
Keep the focus on your gymmie and what her skills are not her scores.
Is she getting better. Has that thing she has been struggling with gotten bette? Did she do c, y or a better than ever……. Did finally hit, b,c,d…..
This is a very subjective sport.
These things happen and long term. It simply doesn’t matter.
Scores are relative.
Keep the focus on your gymmie and what her skills are not her scores.
Is she getting better. Has that thing she has been struggling with gotten bette? Did she do c, y or a better than ever……. Did finally hit, b,c,d…..
It can feel that way, and I guess it's possible that it is actually that way- but, unless it was an in-house meet with parents or the home gym's coaches judging, then official judges are pretty impartial. They go through extensive training and testing before becoming judges and scores are based on deductions that are all listed in the Code of Points. I remember thinking judges just didn't like our (old) gym and that's why the scores seemed to be so low. Turns out the gym didn't know the routines all that well and our kids were missing elements of the Compulsory routines, so they were all getting deductions on those missing elements. To us as new parents everything looked perfect so we thought the judges were just biased.
Honestly, I have never seen that. I've seen certain teams pretty much sweep some events, but usually its because their form is awesome, or that they are just good. Judging is so subjective that its really impossible to fully understand variations that happen. It could be something as simple as their coach knows what specific things the judges that normally work that meet really like to focus on, etc. But I would just shake it off and move on.
Sorry agree to disagree
Just this season Daughter’s meets
HS meet we lost team win by 6 tenths of a points. My daughter was in first on floor, had a beautiful 1 1/2 twist. Last kid in floor a level 7 on senior night at the home school. Coach makes a big production about this is the Seniors last time ever to do floor at this gym. Wink wink. She is a lovely gymnast and a level 7. HS judging is L9 standards. The judge gifted her a 9.2 to tie my daughter. Now my daughter knows and likes this kid and she has been doing this long enough she gets it and was happy to share the podium. And it was a gift and cost a team win
L8 meet home gym, floor judge also an owner. My kid gets a 9.4, home kid gets a 9.4 too after my kid has gone. Again in good conscience she couldn’t score the kid higher but another podium share.
Then there was the judge who scored my kids HS routine a 7. For perspective clean it’s typical an 8.7, one fall an 8.3 which she had. We have really old bars at our HS gym, judge was cranky it took so long to set up. I can assure it was not a 7 routine.
Then there was the judge when who was so clearly biased to the gymnast she was in a first name basis and chatting with. Have her first on 3 events. With falls n beam, bars, and vault. My kid was clean. It’s typically a dog fight between them. Finally at floor we were home some my kid went last on floor. Gave my kid first by 0.25 so no one could cry foul.
These are just recent examples. Again, we get it. I’ve been telling my kid it’s like a holding call in football. My kid knows her football. They could call it every play probably. They pick and choose.
Really in the long run my kid is a section champ going to states with kid she likes to states. Who miraculously tied her a month ago. But that kid didn’t get qualified for all around. They will both get trounced by L9 and 10s and have a blast
And before anyone says it’s HS these are USAG optional qualified judges
Don’t focus on scores or placements. Focus on their actual gymnastics and skills
Who judges high school meets and what are the requirements for judges? I assume the OP's "little gymnast" wasn't competing in a high school meet. USAG judges must go through extensive training and testing to become qualified judges. I suppose it's possible to have a meet somehow stacked with judges who are biased towards one gym, but that would be an anomaly. I agree that focusing on progress over placement and scores is the best plan, but I also think it's important to understand that there are reasons for deductions that parents, especially parents new to the sport, may not recognize.
To add there are also times, especially in lower levels where kids win with a fall and new parents go what the heck. And the kid who fell form is just so stunning she wins.
My kid has been in both sides of the fence,
The only time she walked out of a meet livid. Was the one where the judge was so freaking obviously favoring the other kid. And the only thing she ticked about was how over scored the other kids bars were. She was like her bars were better but not by much. I don’t mind losing I’d prefer to lose fairly
After 10 yrs even not knowing all the minutiae we can pretty accurately call a score. We know which judge judges lower (usually consistent) but lower. And which one loves everyone to have 9s. My kid will walk into a meet and go well Miss x is on floor gonna be a tough day.
My kid has been in both sides of the fence,
The only time she walked out of a meet livid. Was the one where the judge was so freaking obviously favoring the other kid. And the only thing she ticked about was how over scored the other kids bars were. She was like her bars were better but not by much. I don’t mind losing I’d prefer to lose fairly
After 10 yrs even not knowing all the minutiae we can pretty accurately call a score. We know which judge judges lower (usually consistent) but lower. And which one loves everyone to have 9s. My kid will walk into a meet and go well Miss x is on floor gonna be a tough day.
I have never seen that, but I have seen the "big" gyms around scoring way higher than the little gyms.
I was assistant coaching/spectating meets this weekend, and I was watching a level 6 at the gym I coach at do a bar routine- squat on to hit handstand, clear hip hs, layout flyaway. She was most definitely hollow, but she is more of a Simone Biles type gymnast build, so she doesn't have shockingly gorgeous lines. Now this other girl from the big army type team had an equal bar routine, but less handstand-y (level six though so it didn't really matter) but she had long legs and a beautiful hollow. She got five tenths higher than the other gymnast. It felt a little ridiculous, considering the bar routines were basically equal.
It happens though. You never know why, and the best thing for you to do is just let it go. In the long term, it doesn't matter and there is no reason to harbor bad feelings or dwell on how you should have placed better, instead frame it to your daughter as a learning opportunity!
I was assistant coaching/spectating meets this weekend, and I was watching a level 6 at the gym I coach at do a bar routine- squat on to hit handstand, clear hip hs, layout flyaway. She was most definitely hollow, but she is more of a Simone Biles type gymnast build, so she doesn't have shockingly gorgeous lines. Now this other girl from the big army type team had an equal bar routine, but less handstand-y (level six though so it didn't really matter) but she had long legs and a beautiful hollow. She got five tenths higher than the other gymnast. It felt a little ridiculous, considering the bar routines were basically equal.
It happens though. You never know why, and the best thing for you to do is just let it go. In the long term, it doesn't matter and there is no reason to harbor bad feelings or dwell on how you should have placed better, instead frame it to your daughter as a learning opportunity!
They are USAG certified (up-to L10) along with being certified by our state.
The High School judging requirements are comparable to L9 with added bonus skills spelled out in the code of point (kind of like a 9+). I can assure you they are quite capable of judging. We’ve been being judged by most of them for 10 years
And if you have read all my replies I also said there are times in the lower levels especially, you see a gymmie and don’t understand why. And form is important.
The specific examples I mentioned just happen to be from this year.
There have been many examples over the years and not just my kid. Humans by virtue of being human have biases both conscious and unconscious. And that reflects in their scoring at times.
They also miss things because they are human crud happens, my kid got a 9.4 on a floor routine and she missed a specific skill. Even if appropriately scored it wouldn’t have changed her placement. All the other parents on our team were hooting and hollering for her great score. I’m sitting there going that’s high for my kid for where she was at at the time. Coach came over and told me the judge missed whatever skill she didn’t do so her SV shouldn’t have been 10.
ETA- we specifically know a judge all things being equal will credit a kid doing the harder skill in the last pass as opposed to the first. The judge feels that ups the difficulty and gives credit. Not a secret. At least in at the HS level
Like football sometimes the calls work for you, sometimes not.
This is the most subjective sport on the planet. Most of the Olympic team is chosen in a back room.
To repeat in the long game it simply doesn’t matter.
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I agree, in general, you have to let that go. Does it happen? Perhaps, but not everything is a conspiracy. I have definitely seen the leo bonus that big well-known gyms can get. But nothing too horrible.
I feel like this does happen, not so much at home gym meets, but what gym dad said.. LEO bonus! What i remind myself and kid is that what counts is Regionals and of course Nationals. All the other meets are just qualifier meets.
When you are new to the sport parent’s perspective is very different. There are no regionals or nationals at the compulsory levels.
Very different perspective once your kids in optionals
Judging isn’t “so subjective,” but there are “up to” deductions. Some take more, some less. I saw it today when we both deducted the same skill, I just took less of the “up to” than she did. There are set deductions, and we really can’t take deductions that aren’t a deduction, if that makes sense. We honestly do spend 100s of hours learning, studying, and perfecting judging. Clinics, on-line clinics, state, regional, and national congresses, tests, tests, and more tests..... I LOVE IT! But it still frustrates me when I’m in the stands and watching and think the score should be different. LOL!
The most subjective part is artistry and presentation, but it’s still only .3 max. Levels 8-10 also have composition, so while the routines may look similar, there’s a whole other set of criteria to apply after regular deductions are taken that are based on “up-to-level” guidelines. Regardless, I understand the frustration, having been on both sides of the table. I can only recommend trying to not dwell on it. Maybe get someone to look at your videos to help you understand the possible/probable deductions better.
The most subjective part is artistry and presentation, but it’s still only .3 max. Levels 8-10 also have composition, so while the routines may look similar, there’s a whole other set of criteria to apply after regular deductions are taken that are based on “up-to-level” guidelines. Regardless, I understand the frustration, having been on both sides of the table. I can only recommend trying to not dwell on it. Maybe get someone to look at your videos to help you understand the possible/probable deductions better.
Can you give an example of up to level deduction? What does that mean? Is that a start value thing?
Not a high level gymnast- but from what I've read- say a front tuck fulfills a requirement in level 8. You compete it but you get up to level deductions- meaning that even though it fulfills the requirement it is not the standard/level of level 8
Do you mean in your example it fulfills a salto requirement but not the A/B/C/D skill that is required? Is that what the level mean - A/B/C/D skills? If so, that makes sense to me now. Thanks.
No; up to level deduction means that, although a requirement is filled, it is not "up to par" with the level of difficulty typically seen in that level.
For example, my daughter did a bhs-bwo beam series in level 8, but she most likely got an up to level deduction because she did not do a harder series. Now, she did it very cleanly, and I'm not sure if her dismount was UTL either, but she never really scored higher than a 9.2-9.4 even with great form.
For example, my daughter did a bhs-bwo beam series in level 8, but she most likely got an up to level deduction because she did not do a harder series. Now, she did it very cleanly, and I'm not sure if her dismount was UTL either, but she never really scored higher than a 9.2-9.4 even with great form.
Up to level example. There needs to be a connection series on beam in L8.
The expectation is typically a BHS BHS. If a gymnastics were to do a BWO BHS it’s a connection series but not “ up to level” because it’s not a BHS BHS. So there would be a not up to level deduction
”Up to” and “up-to-level” are different things. Leaps have an up to .2 deduction when they aren’t at the required angle, and one judge may take .1 while the other takes .2. Bent knees are always up to .3 deduction, depending on the degree of “bentness;” a tiny bend should be .05-.1, while a 90-degree bend should be .3. But some judges may see a .2 bend deduction while their partner sees a .1 bend deduction. Thats subjective, but there’s a limit to the subjectiveness.
Up-to-level deductions have a whole chart to follow. For instance, in level 9, the minimum final salto on floor needs to be a B. But, if the gymnast only does a B salto as their last salto, they get -.1 for composition not up to level. If they perform a harder salto, like a C, or a B connected directly to a B, they get no deduction. This separates the good, the very good, and the exceptional. There are up-to -level deductions in every event except vault starting in level 8, and specific to the level.
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