Parents How would you handle it?....

[Flicfliclay]

I think it depends on the gym. We are also in the same situation, though DD has had a couple of meets where she wasn't consistent . But with the exception of those two meets, 37's and 38's. My concern is the yurchenko vault. Minimal to no training to date even with the timer, but DD is at a gym that really favors winning, so most of the season was spent tweaking the fhs vault. I think prepping for that yurchenko takes time, and I just don't want to push her to compete that vault before she's really comfortable. And we aren't at a gym that would permit taking the low start value fhs vault for level 8 until she's comfortable competing the yurchenko. So for that reason, I wouldn't be crushed if she repeated level 7. But if your kid has all the up skills for 8, then yes, that seems absurd to repeat 7 just to "win."

Yeah the vault is a big deal! They have done some yurchenko drills here and there. She is also in tops, so a lot of skill she has to have for tops testing.

 

[Gymmommy71]

I'll play devils advocate here and let you know that a big change I've noticed between L8 and L7, is that in L7 you can do the bare minimum skills for the level and still score very high, but in L8, not so much. If you want to be a very high scoring L8 (not just do "okay"), you really got to have clean skills far beyond the minimum requirements - especially on floor and beam. This may be what your gym is worried about depending on if she has a lot of higher level skills or not.

For example, at major meets, I frequently saw skllls like one and a half fulls into front tucks/pikes for the double salto requirement on floor, BHS layouts on beam (or at the very least a back tuck) - the kids doing that stuff were the ones getting the 9.5's, those doing bare minimum were lucky to break 9.0. Bars and vault are not so bad, but it does seem like judges reward bar routines w/ good double back dismounts and those that include both a turning element and a release move a little bit.

 

[gymmomx2]

I'll play devils advocate here and let you know that a big change I've noticed between L8 and L7, is that in L7 you can do the bare minimum skills for the level and still score very high, but in L8, not so much. If you want to be a very high scoring L8 (not just do "okay"), you really got to have clean skills far beyond the minimum requirements - especially on floor and beam. This may be what your gym is worried about depending on if she has a lot of higher level skills or not.

For example, at major meets, I frequently saw skllls like one and a half fulls into front tucks/pikes for the double salto requirement on floor, BHS layouts on beam (or at the very least a back tuck) - the kids doing that stuff were the ones getting the 9.5's, those doing bare minimum were lucky to break 9.0. Bars and vault are not so bad, but it does seem like judges reward bar routines w/ good double back dismounts and those that include both a turning element and a release move a little bit.

There are "acro not up to level" deductions if you do minimal skills but I think you can avoid those if you do a layout 3/2 on floor and BHS-BHS on beam + standalone back tuck.

 

[tomtnt]

Remind the coaches that your daughter wants to do college gymnastics and colleges won't care that she "won" level 7.... (or level 8). Focus on skills needed for level 10 instead of polishing level 7 routine for the sake of the gym banners

 

[GYM0M]

Maybe the coach wants her to be able to focus on TOPS this year.....
Take it from me that it is harder for smaller gyms to prepare for 'both.' IF college gym is the goal, push for L8, but IF your DD has bigger dreams, what's wrong with taking a year to pursue them? It's her last year of TOPS, right? Since you are at a smaller gym, it is imperative that your dd's coaches get to the Ranch. Not necessarily imperative for your DD to get there as there are other ways to qualify elite, but the teaching her coaches would receive is priceless! Just a thought........

 

[FlippinLilysMom]

Our gym has a very simple rule of, if you score at least 2 35s during the meet season then you will move up to the next level, but you must also have your next level skills or at least be very close to having all of the skills. I'm surprised with scores like that that she wouldn't automatically be in the "move up" group.

 

[duyetanh]

Yes, she has won gold for several events. I think he is referring to yes at meets and mostly for State and Regionals... ( which we haven't even competed in this year!) I told him she's hoping to up her scores for state and regionals and his reply was well then next year she will be in the 39's all year? WTF it just irritates me!

Is it just me, or is scoring 39 stacking the deck?
Holy COW.

 

[duyetanh]

Oh wait, no way! 39's are absurd. No, just no. I would be insisting on a move up in that case. Do not even get me started.

Love, love, love this post.

 

[txgymfan]

If she were my kid and she had the skills for level 8, move her...I'm not paying to repeat a level that my kid is scoring in the 9.5-9.7 range already...that's called a ringer. .....so I said to them, "just so we're clear, she will not be repeating level 4 again in this gym"...she was moved up and did well.

This! Bookworm nailed it. Have a conversation, be prepared to move if necessary. That is way to much time. Money, effort, energy to stay back to get 39s.

 

[QueenBee]

I have a question for you. Has your daughter scored 9.5-9.7 on each event during the season (at different meets) or has she scored 9.5-9.7 on all the events at the same meet consistently? I asked because I do think there is a difference between whether she is consistent with her high scoring across all events (getting 38s consistently) versus having individual event high scores at different meets (scoring below mid - high 37 AA consistently).

I've seen gymnasts who consistently score above the mid 37s at Level 7 who then go on to gain skills/score very well at Level 8. But the experience I have seen from girls who score very high on individual events throughout Level 7 but weren't able to put all events together to score consistently over mid 37s throughout Level 7 is that those gymnasts did/do see a drop off in their skills/scores in Level 8. 37s & 38s in Level 7 are much more common than they are in Level 8. At one large meet we attended this year (over 3,000 gymnasts competing), there was literally one score above 38 in Level 8, and something ridiculously low like ten or eleven scores above 37. And we are talking a meet with over 250 Level 8s competing. At another large meet we attended (almost 4,000 gymnasts), there were only 2 scores above 38 in Level 8, and that was a meet with almost 400 Level 8s competing. Scores drop off quickly from Level 7 to Level 8.

If your coach is talking about your daughter moving forward to win AA at Level 7 next year as opposed to just (lol, as if there is really a 'just' here) winning individual events at meets - then there may well be quite a bit of value to being 'held back'. The mental aspects of gymnastics at upper optional levels cannot be overstated. If your daughter still needs to learn how to put a winning meet completely together (how to excel at all 4 events during the same meet) - Level 7 may be exactly the right level to repeat.

I've seen several gymnasts over the years have a very good (but not excellent) Level 7 year who then repeat and have a very dominant second Level 7 season and go on to do very well at Level 8, 9 and 10. I've also seen gymnasts who are very strong on 1 or 2 events in Level 7 just sort of disappear within the middle of the pack in upper optionals.

Additionally, I wouldn't recommend 'threatening' to move your daughter away from the gym during your conversation with the gym if you aren't serious about following through with that threat. If I was a coach, I can't think of a better reason to stop listening to a parent than if they start lying to me in order to get a specific result. Once you lose credibility, it is very hard to get it back. Tell the coaches how you are feeling, what questions you have and then listen to their answers. Don't threaten unless you really mean it.

Good luck with figuring out what is best for your daughter. It isn't easy to figure these things out.

 

[bookworm]

1. I've seen several gymnasts over the years have a very good (but not excellent) Level 7 year who then repeat and have a very dominant second Level 7 season and go on to do very well at Level 8, 9 and 10. I've also seen gymnasts who are very strong on 1 or 2 events in Level 7 just sort of disappear within the middle of the pack in upper optionals.

2. Additionally, I wouldn't recommend 'threatening' to move your daughter away from the gym during your conversation with the gym if you aren't serious about following through with that threat. If I was a coach, I can't think of a better reason to stop listening to a parent than if they start lying to me in order to get a specific result. Once you lose credibility, it is very hard to get it back. Tell the coaches how you are feeling, what questions you have and then listen to their answers. Don't threaten unless you really mean it.

Good luck with figuring out what is best for your daughter. It isn't easy to figure these things out.

Point 1: I wouldn't classify someone who's scoring 9.5-9.7 on her events as having a "very good (but not excellent) Level 7 " year...I would say she DID have an excellent year and should be moved up.....and the OP said she has her Level 8 skills so I can't imagine the rationale for keeping her a 7 again....

Point 2: I'm guessing you saw my post as a "threat" when I said that "my daughter wouldn't be repeating level 4 again in this gym" but it wasn't a threat, it was a statement of fact. I very rarely spoke to my girls coaches about their gymnastics because that's what I was paying them for, but I always did my research and knew what was going on and we had said from the get go that age was not the determining factor on progression, so wanting to keep my daughter at a level because of her age, and not her skills, was a breach of the agreement we had...and yes, I was prepared to move them if I had to. No threat, just live up to what we agreed on , simple business transaction.

Years down the road , these same coaches did not live up to the agreement we had , and I did move them because that was better for my girls and the original gym couldn't meet their needs but again , no threat, just being where they needed to be at that point in their careers...

 

[gasrgoose]

Does your gym have any gymnasts at level 8, 9, or 10?

 

[QueenBee]

Point 1: I wouldn't classify someone who's scoring 9.5-9.7 on her events as having a "very good (but not excellent) Level 7 " year...I would say she DID have an excellent year and should be moved up.....and the OP said she has her Level 8 skills so I can't imagine the rationale for keeping her a 7 again....

Point 2: I'm guessing you saw my post as a "threat" when I said that "my daughter wouldn't be repeating level 4 again in this gym" but it wasn't a threat, it was a statement of fact. I very rarely spoke to my girls coaches about their gymnastics because that's what I was paying them for, but I always did my research and knew what was going on and we had said from the get go that age was not the determining factor on progression, so wanting to keep my daughter at a level because of her age, and not her skills, was a breach of the agreement we had...and yes, I was prepared to move them if I had to. No threat, just live up to what we agreed on , simple business transaction.

Years down the road , these same coaches did not live up to the agreement we had , and I did move them because that was better for my girls and the original gym couldn't meet their needs but again , no threat, just being where they needed to be at that point in their careers...

@bookworm - I thought you gave great advice, as always (my first piece of advice on this thread was figure out if you want to stay at this gym or figure out a new gym, so I don't see any problem with leaving if that's what someone wants and will get them better coaching/outcomes for their gymnast). My comments about threats were specifically based on the OP saying that it would devastate her daughter to leave said gym but OP would "threaten" to leave if that would help her case at the current gym. If you don't really mean it, don't say it is my motto. If you do mean it - say it by all means. And be willing to follow through. I think you and I are in agreement on this point.

When I read the OP, I thought she said her daughter doesn't yet have all her 8 skills (but has a year to get them). That should be plenty of time to get the Level 8 skills as far as I am concerned which is why I wondered in my first post on this thread why her gym was having this conversation now, as it doesn't make any sense to me.

What I was/am asking is whether those 9.5-9.7s are happening together at the same meet or if OPs daughter is having a year where she gets a 9.5 on 1 or 2 events at a meet (and 2-3 mid to high 8s on the other events) or if she is getting 9.5-9.7 across the board all at one meet. Either way - OPs daughter is a very talented young gymnast. But one possible type of scores would make the coaches suggestion to repeat Level 7 make some sense and the other possible set of scores makes the suggestion ridiculous in my mind.

Last year, I watched one gymnast (super talented, young) at Level 7 have a good but not great year because while she was able to get 9.5+ on each event (and proved it over the season) she was never able to put together a meet where she achieved those kinds of scores all together. Her AA score never went higher than mid 36s. She is repeating Level 7 this year and has consistently gotten 38s. She's at a gym with a very strong upper optional program. This year, there is no question about whether she will move to Level 8 next year, I expect she will probably dominate because her talent was never in doubt, only her ability to put everything together.

Again, in my first reply on this thread - I asked the OP why her gym would be having this conversation a year before her daughter would be competing level 8 and whether her gym has been able to get girls to Level 8, 9 and 10 successfully. My first thought on this subject was the only reason a gym would hold back a level 7 gymnast who is scoring 9.5-9.7 across all 4 events is that the gym itself is not able to get gymnasts to those higher optional levels successfully.

I've seen a lot of gymnasts in our area who are extremely strong on 1-2 events and weaker on the other two events. We've had girls consistently scoring above 9.8 on 1 or 2 events who consistently score in the mid 8s on their other events (with sometimes a low 9 on their 'weaker' events). Those gymnasts have struggled more than gymnasts who consistently scored all 9s at every meet when they hit Level 8.

And I do think there is a big difference between scoring a 9.5 on 4 events at the same meet and being able to score 9.5 on 1 or 2 events at each meet - even though it's clear both set of scores show very talented gymnasts. If the OPs daughter has gotten individual gold on all 4 events (at different meets) but not been 1st or 2nd AA regularly - I can see a coach wanting to figure out how they get help the gymnast put everything together at the same time. Some kids need more time learning how to compete on meet days. And this gymnast does have the time, we aren't talking about a 12 year old Level 7.

 

[Flicfliclay]

Does your gym have any gymnasts at level 8, 9, or 10?

Yes there are

 

[bookworm]

@bookworm

What I was/am asking is whether those 9.5-9.7s are happening together at the same meet or if OPs daughter is having a year where she gets a 9.5 on 1 or 2 events at a meet (and 2-3 mid to high 8s on the other events) or if she is getting 9.5-9.7 across the board all at one meet. Either way - OPs daughter is a very talented young gymnast. But one possible type of scores would make the coaches suggestion to repeat Level 7 make some sense and the other possible set of scores makes the suggestion ridiculous in my mind.

When the OP said her coach wanted to hold her daughter back so"she could get 39s" , my interpretation was that she gets the 9.5-9.7 across the board..... because say she got 9.7s on 3 events and had one event in the 7s , that would only put her AA in the mid 36s so for the 39 projection to add up, she had to be getting high scores on all events....and like you said, if true, makes repeating the level a ridiculous suggestion.

 

[Flicfliclay]

@bookworm - I thought you gave great advice, as always (my first piece of advice on this thread was figure out if you want to stay at this gym or figure out a new gym, so I don't see any problem with leaving if that's what someone wants and will get them better coaching/outcomes for their gymnast). My comments about threats were specifically based on the OP saying that it would devastate her daughter to leave said gym but OP would "threaten" to leave if that would help her case at the current gym. If you don't really mean it, don't say it is my motto. If you do mean it - say it by all means. And be willing to follow through. I think you and I are in agreement on this point.

When I read the OP, I thought she said her daughter doesn't yet have all her 8 skills (but has a year to get them). That should be plenty of time to get the Level 8 skills as far as I am concerned which is why I wondered in my first post on this thread why her gym was having this conversation now, as it doesn't make any sense to me.

What I was/am asking is whether those 9.5-9.7s are happening together at the same meet or if OPs daughter is having a year where she gets a 9.5 on 1 or 2 events at a meet (and 2-3 mid to high 8s on the other events) or if she is getting 9.5-9.7 across the board all at one meet. Either way - OPs daughter is a very talented young gymnast. But one possible type of scores would make the coaches suggestion to repeat Level 7 make some sense and the other possible set of scores makes the suggestion ridiculous in my mind.

Last year, I watched one gymnast (super talented, young) at Level 7 have a good but not great year because while she was able to get 9.5+ on each event (and proved it over the season) she was never able to put together a meet where she achieved those kinds of scores all together. Her AA score never went higher than mid 36s. She is repeating Level 7 this year and has consistently gotten 38s. She's at a gym with a very strong upper optional program. This year, there is no question about whether she will move to Level 8 next year, I expect she will probably dominate because her talent was never in doubt, only her ability to put everything together.

Again, in my first reply on this thread - I asked the OP why her gym would be having this conversation a year before her daughter would be competing level 8 and whether her gym has been able to get girls to Level 8, 9 and 10 successfully. My first thought on this subject was the only reason a gym would hold back a level 7 gymnast who is scoring 9.5-9.7 across all 4 events is that the gym itself is not able to get gymnasts to those higher optional levels successfully.

I've seen a lot of gymnasts in our area who are extremely strong on 1-2 events and weaker on the other two events. We've had girls consistently scoring above 9.8 on 1 or 2 events who consistently score in the mid 8s on their other events (with sometimes a low 9 on their 'weaker' events). Those gymnasts have struggled more than gymnasts who consistently scored all 9s at every meet when they hit Level 8.

And I do think there is a big difference between scoring a 9.5 on 4 events at the same meet and being able to score 9.5 on 1 or 2 events at each meet - even though it's clear both set of scores show very talented gymnasts. If the OPs daughter has gotten individual gold on all 4 events (at different meets) but not been 1st or 2nd AA regularly - I can see a coach wanting to figure out how they get help the gymnast put everything together at the same time. Some kids need more time learning how to compete on meet days. And this gymnast does have the time, we aren't talking about a 12 year old Level 7.

First off, thank you for your response and the time and thought process of everything. That's why I absolutely love this group because you can get an outside perspective that has a much broader aspect. Sometimes it's easy to think more narrowly at a situation.
First off, the scoring.. she has been consistently scoring in the 9's at every meet.
A problem I guess I do not understand is.. what indicates or shows that a gymnast is ready to move on? In my own mind scoring 36+ consistently shows a gymnast is ready to move on. ( not specifically speaking of my daughter; just a generalization) Regardless of winning or medals.
When I was talking to the owner he clearly only cared about winning and high scores. I do not.
With that being said would doing level 7 again boost confidence? Is it the " right" thing to do to teach my daughter that winning and being on top is the main objective?
You are correct when I stated she does still need some of the skills,but has a lot of time to get them. If she does not, I totally get keeping her back in 7.

Honestly I don't understand why he is bringing this up now as opposed to later in the year? I feel like he's trying to prep me for what's to come? He talked about this in FRONT of my daughter yesterday and later that evening she said it made her really mad! I asked why and she said she feels like she has proven herself in level 7. Mind you she is 9, so that's as far as I pushed her to talk about it. I told her, let's not worry about this since you are still in competition season.

As far as threatening to leave, I would certainly not start of a conversation with the coaches saying we are leaving if you don't do what we want. Although in my mind I want to stomp my feet and jump up and down and act like a child! Ha ha!
What I am going to do is wait for state and regionals to be over and go from there. In the mean time do my research on other gyms and their philosophy.

 

[gymmomx2]

Are the coach and owner on the same page? Can you get the coach on your side?
It really depends on the child whether an extra "winning" year while repeating a level is beneficial. My child would see repeating as "I'm not good enough for L8" so it would be counterproductive for her - she is skills driven, not medal driven.

 

[Flicfliclay]

Are the coach and owner on the same page? Can you get the coach on your side?
It really depends on the child whether an extra "winning" year while repeating a level is beneficial. My child would see repeating as "I'm not good enough for L8" so it would be counterproductive for her - she is skills driven, not medal driven.

That's the problem, I do not think the coaches and owner are technically on the same page. In the end if the owner pushes for what he wants then that's exactly what will be done. My daughter absolutely will feel the same way you described as " I'm not good enough " I feel like if the coaches wait and wait to tell her if she is moving on it will put her on edge all summer. That's what they did last season and it was very stressful for my daughter. ( she mandated 5 and skipped 6 ).

 

[GymDad9.9]

First off, thank you for your response and the time and thought process of everything. That's why I absolutely love this group because you can get an outside perspective that has a much broader aspect. Sometimes it's easy to think more narrowly at a situation.
First off, the scoring.. she has been consistently scoring in the 9's at every meet.
A problem I guess I do not understand is.. what indicates or shows that a gymnast is ready to move on? In my own mind scoring 36+ consistently shows a gymnast is ready to move on. ( not specifically speaking of my daughter; just a generalization) Regardless of winning or medals.
When I was talking to the owner he clearly only cared about winning and high scores. I do not.
With that being said would doing level 7 again boost confidence? Is it the " right" thing to do to teach my daughter that winning and being on top is the main objective?
You are correct when I stated she does still need some of the skills,but has a lot of time to get them. If she does not, I totally get keeping her back in 7.

Honestly I don't understand why he is bringing this up now as opposed to later in the year? I feel like he's trying to prep me for what's to come? He talked about this in FRONT of my daughter yesterday and later that evening she said it made her really mad! I asked why and she said she feels like she has proven herself in level 7. Mind you she is 9, so that's as far as I pushed her to talk about it. I told her, let's not worry about this since you are still in competition season.

As far as threatening to leave, I would certainly not start of a conversation with the coaches saying we are leaving if you don't do what we want. Although in my mind I want to stomp my feet and jump up and down and act like a child! Ha ha!
What I am going to do is wait for state and regionals to be over and go from there. In the mean time do my research on other gyms and their philosophy.

Trust your daughter

 

[Ali'sMom]

A problem I guess I do not understand is.. what indicates or shows that a gymnast is ready to move on? In my own mind scoring 36+ consistently shows a gymnast is ready to move on. ( not specifically speaking of my daughter; just a generalization) Regardless of winning or medals.

With that being said would doing level 7 again boost confidence? Is it the " right" thing to do to teach my daughter that winning and being on top is the main objective?
You are correct when I stated she does still need some of the skills,but has a lot of time to get them. If she does not, I totally get keeping her back in 7.

Ready? I think 36+ means she's done well in the level and ready to tackle the next. Some girls, 36+ means they didn't do well (in their own minds). Could a repeat season of that girl, now ready for 37s boost her confidence? absolutely. Would it be boring for the one who was happy with 36s? absolutely.
But in general, yes, 36+ consistently means they're ready to tackle.
Now, ready to move up? that is based on the skills. We've had girls getting 37+ in level 3 who just couldnt' get a kip, and repeated L3. (still no kip, and is now XG and having a fabulous time doing higher skills on beam, but no kip on bars). So, your DD has some of the skills, and is on track to get the rest.
Yes, ready to move up.

As far as teaching her that winning is the main objective - I'd say no. I don't think that should ever be taught. But again, if she's the girl who is NOT happy with middle of the pack, then maybe a repeat, higher-in-the-pack season would do wonders for her. But if she's thrilled doing what she's doing, regardless of scores or medals, and is physically ready, then again, ready to move up.

With the coach being about "winning", but your daughter bored in level 7 and ready to move up, I'd do my best to nudge forward with moving up to level 8. And yes, when it comes time to truly be ready for comp season, and if she's not consistent with something, she repeats Level 7. Possibly with some of the skill upgrades