I have a gripe about contact protocol

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Alright, I have gotten in trouble for this a while ago. And, I will not do it again. But...

Why is it that hosts of meets would publicly post their email addresses on the meet information sites (with no restriction specified) and would give people a hard time for contacting them concerning a meet.

I am the moderator and web manager of our club's communication sites and I post meet result information and such for our parents and gymnasts. I used to contact gyms when results are not available for a meet and many gyms that I had reached were perfectly fine with that. ...until one time a few years ago. When I courteously and gently contacted one gym via email about online results I got chewed out big time. I was basically told that I wasn't privileged and I was out of line for contacting them. Not only that, the host owner actually went ahead to complain to our gym owners. (BTW, this meet has a results page already existed)

Alright, so the message was that I was not conforming to the protocol of the industry. Because of this and other similar incidences by other parents, we are constantly reminded not to contact any gym personally.

I understand the potential overwhelming email messages and phone calls. And, hosts are very busy putting on the event and they aren't able to respond to and be bothered by all the gymnasts' parents' inquiries.

So, my questions here are:
1. is there such a general protocol in other regions around the country or is this just only regional?
2. why would the host gym put contact info for the public to see but they don't want to be contacted by a Joe Schmo parent? Why don't they just say something like "Contact: XXX-XXXX (Meet Coordinator Only).
3. how are gymnastics meets any different than any other events, including competition of other sports? I mean those people are busy too.
 
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I'm wondering what you might need to be contacting the host gym for? Most have websites(some are much better than others) for directions, host hotels, meet schedules...and eventually meet results(you gotta be patient for them to be posted though). What other info are you needing to ask for? Can't say I've felt the need to contact a host gym. Except to send a thank you e-mail after it was over, for an extremely well run & fun meet:).
 
I'm wondering what you might need to be contacting the host gym for? Most have websites(some are much better than others) for directions, host hotels, meet schedules...and eventually meet results(you gotta be patient for them to be posted though). What other info are you needing to ask for? Can't say I've felt the need to contact a host gym. Except to send a thank you e-mail after it was over, for an extremely well run & fun meet:).
Quick answer...

Not all gyms have meet results posted online (with or without an existing page). With those who do, sometimes mistakes are made (like sessions are mixed up or results from wrong season are posted, etc.) It is not a requirement for hosts to post the results (unlike for some other sports). Every once in a while, we would come back from a meet and not know where we are compared to other gyms and gymnasts. Coaches always get the actual scores but that can come in the form of individual score sheets or result summaries/listings.

With meet schedule and such, yeah you're right you just have to have patience with them.
 
NotAMom,
I understand your frustration.

As a former gymnast, coach and passionate fan, I have come to feel that certain people in gymnastics derive a sense of power and priviledge from their involvement in the sport. There seems to be an unwritten 'code' that you have to earn information and the right to ask questions. Mere fans and outsiders opinions don't count (just look at the disregard the FIG seems to have for their fan base).

My personal feeling is that good, competant leaders do not feel offended or defensive when questioned, but welcome positive input. Obviously, a gym receiving hundreds of e-mails or phone calls about a meet when all the information is posted online can be overwhelming and inconvenient, but then they should not list contact info. if they don't want to be contacted. Part of doing business is responding to customers - inconvenient or not.

I see some gyms that do an excellent job of posting meet info and rotation schedules online in a timely fashion, but some do not. If a gym CHOOSES to host a meet, they IMO should have an easy to navigate, regularly updated website with all pertinent info posted ASAP, including RESULTS. It is ridiculous in 2009, that some gyms host meets and either do not post results or take 2 weeks to do so. Real-time internet scoring is available, why not use it? At least gyms should make paper copies of meet results available to spectators after the event, if even for a small fee to cover paper/ink costs. They can hold them until after awards, but if I PAY to watch a meet, I like to know who places where.

I see some gyms are claiming that USAG will not allow them to post meet scores online, due to disclosure of athlete's personal info. I have seen scores posted that included athletes' USAG no. and DOB, which I thought was too much identifying info. However, my interpretation of the USAG memo on this was that names and scores were OK, but DOB was not. Maybe USAG needs to provide clarity on this issue?
 
So, my questions here are:
1. is there such a general protocol in other regions around the country or is this just only regional?
No, pretty standard, and every gym should make his clear to the parents. They need to contact THEIR gym, not the host gym, with questions.

2. why would the host gym put contact info for the public to see but they don't want to be contacted by a Joe Schmo parent? Why don't they just say something like "Contact: XXX-XXXX (Meet Coordinator Only).

This should be probably be made more clear, but there tends to be an assumption that teams are providing reminders about this. Rude responses aren't necessary, it would be better in my opinion to either a) ignore or b) contact the offending gym and ask them to re-issue this reminder to their team.

3. how are gymnastics meets any different than any other events, including competition of other sports? I mean those people are busy too.

I'm not sure, I have very little concept of anything outside the orbit of gymnastics ;) No, seriously, I don't know. Is it different with other sports? Maybe? I have no idea. We are a judged sport with multiple events and individual competitors so there is some inherent craziness with scores, which I will proceed to expand on!

Scores.

Now, I think it is easy to decry the lack of online results, and while the technology is generally there, I think we need to have some appreciation for the sense of scale and the task we're dealing with. If you have never had the privilege of being involved with the "score table" and all that implies at a large, boys and girls invitational, man, you're missing out (in the sense you should stay far, far away in an attempt to never know). You would think technology and the wisdom of elders might have produced an efficient, reliable, standardized system. Unfortunately, you're wrong.

You would think the software was user friendly...nope. Score verification can be time consuming, confusing, and end up all wrong in the end.

It is sometimes not that simple. We manage to get the results up, but they have to be exported first, and during the meet, like many meets, it's just damage control. Those fancy electronic score boards that parents love so much (I don't mean that disparagingly at all, completely neutral statement) are great in some sense, but also add another layer of complications. Also, someone needs to do it, and in many cases I suspect it's just a delegation issue. It falls through the cracks and life goes on. I understand people have come to expect scores to be posted, and I appreciate it in a lot of instances too, but at some point we have to be realistic and remember this is not an inalienable right or something.

I promise you during multi-day invitationals coordinators are often there past midnight preparing for subsequent days, cleaning, etc, and that's before even the thought of online scores for many setups. Some people really don't have the best technology, like with anything else.

Providing paper results for spectators seems unlikely. If you see awards, I can't understand what the necessity is. Personally if I see a session I don't have an athlete competing in, I couldn't really care less about the results sheet. I tend to know how the kids I know did, and I'm not sure why knowing every little placement matters. Perhaps this is a just a nod to my gymnastics free spirit, because I don't really get the program inserts where scores can be recorded for EVERY competitor. More scary to me is that they are apparently utilized, but I live in my bubble of gymnastics ignorance out on the floor.

Re: privacy. This issue has been recently clarified. Have to provide opt-out and limit information. DOB is prohibited now.
 
Let's be clear about what I was not griping about so there is no misunderstanding.

It has nothing to do with lack of due diligence, hard work and commitment. I already assume the confusion, the extra long hours, the struggle with technology, etc. in running a meet. Our gym does not run meets but I am involved with something else (that is in the same magnitude in running a meet) that is entirely membership run and am surrounded by people who dedicate their time and make sacrifies in their lives everyday. So, I totally appreciate and extend my support to the dedication and effort dished out by the host gyms and everyone involved. So, no convincing is necessary.
 
Thanks gymdog you explained that all very well! No, there isn't any reason for rudeness on anyones part. But if someone were to call our gym(as the host gym) with a meet score question post meet, they wouldn't get an answer either. They'd either get the answering machine or a coach who wouldn't have an answer for them. Our meets are run by the booster club parent volunteers, not the gym staff or the coaches. And us parents aren't hanging at the gym answering phones.

All of the parents are volunteers and many hold jobs outside the home. After spending the whole weekend working a meet(getting home at midnight), we go to work. So there can be lag time. I can see where people calling asking where the results are, could just just hold it up more & get people more frustrated(not that I've exprienced this personally). Yes, some gyms have access to better technology than others. Some have more "workers" to get it done. I do appreciate a quick turn around time to posting results as much as the next guy;). But I've helped run many meets & it is a thankless job. And I've never even tackled the scoring job yet( I kiss the feet of the parents who do that,:p LOL!).

I guess I tend to go easy about the posting of meet results. Because I know how much goes into running a meet. And things don't always run as smoothly as we would like. I have always eventually found the scores on-line for every meet(even the smallest, most poorly run meets). Either on the host gyms website(sometimes I've had to do a google search to find it), or on our states USAG wesite. I like to print out the nice neat page of scores for my DD's scrap book:D. Maybe I'm just a patient person:eek:. But since I already know how my DD did at the meet, I can wait until the meet results get posted to fulfill any other curiosity I have, JMHO.
 
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I help a lot at our gym. I once contacted a gym via email (without our coaches or owner's knowledge) to set up a meet for our level 7's. In this case all went well and we have now attended that meet for several years. In my understanding the meet has grown tremendously, perhaps due to their kindness and the fact that it was well run.

As far as obtaining scores, we have a parent at each level responsible for recording the scores of our gymnasts. That way they can be posted and recorded. The coaches normally receive the list of scores for each session that includes all the gymnasts.

Perhaps checking with your own coaches or owner could save you dealing with possibly those from other gyms who don't want to deal with parents.

Good luck!
 
I appreciate gymdog's insight and gymjourneymom's feelings. Although I agree with them on many points, I do still feel that part of the responsibility of hosting a sporting competition is making the results available.

If results are not available, what meaning does the event have? Is it just an exhibition? I attendened one meet as a paying spectator where results were not available at the event or online. I happened to be interested in the exact scores and placements of the athletes I watched, yet it was physically impossible for me to write all of these down at the time. Just because I am not gymnast Jane's 2nd aunt does not mean that I don't want to know how she scored.

Sometimes spectators ARE interested in exact placements! Scores matter and tenths matter! To me information matters, and in this internet age, providing it in a timely manner is something gyms that CHOOSE to host meets should consider. I understand that they are often utilizing booster club 'volunteers' who have other jobs and commitments, but providing results is part of running a meet - not icing on the cake IMO. Even as a coach, with gymnasts in the meet, I have had trouble getting copies of results - it's like they are gold-dust or something. As for awards. Does anyone in their right mind sit through awards if they don't have to? When you start awarding medals and placings out to 15th or whatever, it takes almost as long as the meet itself. I know it makes the kids feel great, but I am more interested in Emma, Suzi and Kate's scores and deductions than whether they got a ribbon for being 14th on beam.
 
I help a lot at our gym. I once contacted a gym via email (without our coaches or owner's knowledge) to set up a meet for our level 7's. In this case all went well and we have now attended that meet for several years. In my understanding the meet has grown tremendously, perhaps due to their kindness and the fact that it was well run.

I'm a little confused, but if you're acting as a representative of a gym contacting the meet director about registration, that's different.

Regardless, the standard protocol for gymnastics meet is contact your child's gym, not the host gym. I'm not trying to make a normative statement here, except in general this is the most efficient thing to do in a lot of cases. Personally I think a website moderator for a club contacting in that manner is not necessarily out of bounds of the above guideline, but that's something the owners need to address beforehand, with the owner who complained, etc. However, if I had a parent who had offered to do those things, personally I would also tell them not to contact other clubs about those things. I don't find it out of line so much as just...not done. I realize that's not a good explanation, but I don't know if there is one. At any rate, the situation really didn't really warrant the reaction it received. If they didn't want to answer, they could have just ignored it. It's not like it was a bunch of parents from your club calling for time sensitive info like "what session is my daughter in? when is open stretch?"etc.

I am not trying to convince anyone of diligence. Obviously a big meet is a lot of work, and some benefit endowments rather than teams or individuals. I realize things may be different in another industry but the way the gymnastics community has dealt with "many parents, one host gym" is to say "parents need to contact their child's gym, not the host gym." I addressed score software and the like because of other comments in the thread that not posting scores in 2009 is ridiculous, etc. Again, I don't really think that the specific example in the original post is a clear cut example of an infraction of this procedure, and rudeness is never appropriate and particularly unattractive within a small community that should have the same goals, but the general protocol does exist, and score software does sometimes suck.
 
I appreciate gymdog's insight and gymjourneymom's feelings. Although I agree with them on many points, I do still feel that part of the responsibility of hosting a sporting competition is making the results available.

If results are not available, what meaning does the event have? Is it just an exhibition? I attendened one meet as a paying spectator where results were not available at the event or online. I happened to be interested in the exact scores and placements of the athletes I watched, yet it was physically impossible for me to write all of these down at the time. Just because I am not gymnast Jane's 2nd aunt does not mean that I don't want to know how she scored.

Sometimes spectators ARE interested in exact placements! Scores matter and tenths matter! To me information matters, and in this internet age, providing it in a timely manner is something gyms that CHOOSE to host meets should consider. I understand that they are often utilizing booster club 'volunteers' who have other jobs and commitments, but providing results is part of running a meet - not icing on the cake IMO. Even as a coach, with gymnasts in the meet, I have had trouble getting copies of results - it's like they are gold-dust or something. As for awards. Does anyone in their right mind sit through awards if they don't have to? When you start awarding medals and placings out to 15th or whatever, it takes almost as long as the meet itself. I know it makes the kids feel great, but I am more interested in Emma, Suzi and Kate's scores and deductions than whether they got a ribbon for being 14th on beam.

Well, the problem (for us, anyway) with the coaches' copies in multiple sessions is usually another session has started right away, and most coaches coach more than one level, so everyone is all over the place (and a session is starting). And (software problems and incompatibility seem to be a theme for us, what can I say) sometimes we've had issues getting them because of unforeseen things. Certainly, they should be provided, but even when you've planned for it, they can get delayed. The score table should have information about when they are coming though.

I don't think the event really becomes any more or less of an exhibition without online results. What was gymnastics before online scores were so common? Scores were given at the event and there were awards. Results existed. I'm all for online results, don't get me wrong. Someone needs to design some more streamlined software or something. I want to know what the (very few, unicorn like) people who have the live updates going are using. I'm sure if someone came up with something better that was easily distributed and compatible and could be standardized, it would be great. I mean, I guess it's standardized in that everyone's using the same few programs, but not really.
 
There are many fine gyms holding some wonderful meets, that do not have the capabilities to instantly post meet results. I'd hate to see them stop holding meets just because they cannot afford the latest & greatest computer systems & programs. Technology is progressing & individual gyms are trying to get there. But it's not going to happen uniformly everywhere at once. Economic times are tight & everyone is trying to keep cost down. Instant real time meet scores may be the way of the future, but lets not hold it against any gym that doesn't have it right now.

Gyms choose to hold meets for the kids to compete & have fun. Parents end up running the meets because their kids fell in love with this sport & we will do anything for them. Most of us have no special expertise in gymnastics or running meets. With all that is involved, I'm actually surprised most meets run as smoothly as they do:rolleyes:. And(from my experience) it is usually a handful of people who do a lion's share of the work. I'm sure any gym in your area would be happy if you could volunteer in any capacity at their next meet:).

Yes, I can see your frustration in this "age of instant gratification" of having to wait for meet results. But you do get them at some point, right? Have you ever not gotten them? If there is a meet that is that bad that you never got them...then I suggest not returning to that meet & telling them why. So they can try to improve the problem.

I also do not think a meet is any less of an event just because the scores are not immediately available. I actually try very hard NOT to have my DD obsess about scores. And since this is HER sport, I don't think I should be obsessing over scores either, but that's JMHO as a parent. As coaches you are obviously in a "need to know position".

So yes, there are advances & improvements to be made. I think we can all agree on that! But it's going to take time & patience is going to be required. Lets all try to be part of the solution and help to advance the sport. Anyone know anyone in computer program/system development? Maybe we can all be development contractors & get in on the ground floor. We can get rich coming up with "the universal instant meet score program!". But it has to be cheap & user friendly!!!:D
 
I was a meet director at the old gym and had my email posted for contact and never had any issues with that, either before or after the meet. People would contact me about hotels or the photographer's website or even "might you be able to put the Level 8s on such and such a day because we have SATs" etc. I took every email seriously and responded to all with the info I had. I usually received a thank you email for answering them!! I hope people remember the positive experience rather than , like the original poster, remembering how poorly they were treated. Even if you are answered with a "I can't answer this at this time but I'll get back to you" is better than being berated for sending an email.
 
Standarad protocol for my area...parents wouldnt get anything from the host gym. No offense but if any parent we encouraged to call the hosts and request the info the phone would be ringing constantly and the office staff would get annoyed.

Coaches are responsible for getting the printed results after a meet. As I walk out of the meet I go up to the head table and get the results for whatever sessions my girls were competing. We have parents that do newspaper articles on our team so I copy and hand off the results to them. I would encourage them to ask me not bother the gym with questions like that.

As for posting. I cant think of a single gym in my state that posts results online. The state website does but not individual gyms. In all honesty I would rather spend my time in the gym on the floor coaching then uploading scores or sendings scores to parents.

Also to clarify USAG rules: you cannot post athletes date of birth or USAG number. Names, gym, division, score, placement is fine.
 
We have parents that do newspaper articles on our team so I copy and hand off the results to them.
I am one of such parents for our gym. Our coaches and I work well together so my partner and I always get what the coaches get from the meet.

With that being said, there are many issues with relying on only press printed results.

For one thing, frequently the newspaper's prints are wrong (around here it's more than 50% of the time). Also, they make the final call on what and when to print or not at all (gymnastics typically takes a lower priority and getting less attention). Knowing that, I always either post our own scores online in our own site so at least that information is for sure available.

Secondly, the press posted results never contain scores from other gyms and gymnasts. It is a competition that gymnasts train hard for. This should matter to all the gymnasts, parents and the coaches.

Thirdly, these score sheets are always in paper form so translating every score into softcopy for distribution is nearly impossible. Of course, it makes no sense to run hardcopies for all the parents either due to cost and waste reasons.
 
Not to bring up an old topic but this seems to relate to my question. Is there a reason why results would not be shared at all? For example, they might be flashed during the meet but there isn't an award ceremony and the results aren't ever listed anywhere? We have been to a few meets that we get gymnast results via a score card but not where they placed.
 
Not to bring up an old topic but this seems to relate to my question. Is there a reason why results would not be shared at all? For example, they might be flashed during the meet but there isn't an award ceremony and the results aren't ever listed anywhere? We have been to a few meets that we get gymnast results via a score card but not where they placed.

Hmm, it could be a way qualifiers are done in your state...not sure. In our state we no longer give awards at sectional meets. There is a system where the girls are called up as a group based on AA (for example, everybody above a 36 AA - names are read out, the kids line up, they go back and then everyone above a 35AA). There is no placement, just the AA score.

Otherwise for invitationals this would not be customary. So I am guessing these are not invitational but sectional type meets to qualify to a later "championship" meet. In some states in level 4 mostly the kids can do "achievement" where they just get the achievement ribbons after each event based on score, but no placement (that's a different category...kind of like another level if that makes sense). But this is relatively uncommon, I think they are still doing this in TX though, big state lots of kids, the achievement route is sort of a less competitive way to get them involved.

Edited to add if it helps for clarification: in my state, "sectionals" is a meet where the girls are trying to qualify to states. They qualify to this meet from any sanctioned invitational (awards are given at these) and then at the sectional meet (no placement awards) they can qualify to the state meet by achieving a certain AA score.
 
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