WAG I know I am late to the party - but...

[Traci]

I just saw the revised post (dated Sept 8th) for level 9 and 10 regarding guidelines for deductions. Dang.

 

[NutterButter]

I don't know what you are talking about. It would be helpful if you provided a link or reference point to what you are talking about.

 

[Traci]

I don't know what you are talking about. It would be helpful if you provided a link or reference point to what you are talking about.

https://usagym.org/pages/women/pages/jooptionals.html

Appendix 15

 

[Natasha]

Keep in mind this is only a .2 TOTAL deduction- so for instance on bars where they list 4 requirements for no deduction you are still only looking at a total of .2, so say you meet 3 of the 4 requirements- I'm thinking that's only .05 or .1...not any more than a small step on the landing or a small leg separation during a skill.... These new specifications are really there to help separate out the very best routines so that a near perfect routine with just slightly less difficulty can be separated from one with full difficulty. AND the 'up to level' composition deduction has always been there, they just didn't spell out before what would constitute a deduction. Also, this is only one of a bunch of composition deductions...

 

[Natasha]

Keep in mind this is only a .2 TOTAL deduction- so for instance on bars where they list 4 requirements for no deduction you are still only looking at a total of .2, so say you meet 3 of the 4 requirements- I'm thinking that's only .05 or .1...not any more than a small step on the landing or a small leg separation during a skill.... These new specifications are really there to help separate out the very best routines so that a near perfect routine with just slightly less difficulty can be separated from one with full difficulty. AND the 'up to level' composition deduction has always been there, they just didn't spell out before what would constitute a deduction. Also, this is only one of a bunch of composition deductions...

Oops, above should be talking about beam which has 4 requirements, just re-looked at bars, it is set up differently...and yeah, I do agree....dang! But I guess they need something to separate out the girls that are multi year L10s...

 

[Traci]

Oops, above should be talking about beam which has 4 requirements, just re-looked at bars, it is set up differently...and yeah, I do agree....dang! But I guess they need something to separate out the girls that are multi year L10s...

For me (well, for my DD), the changes are fine because she was already working on a tkachev (reverse hect - whatever you call it) on bars but what about girls who haven't and just learn of the changes?? That isn't long to learn a big skill... Am I wrong?

 

[Natasha]

For me (well, for my DD), the changes are fine because she was already working on a tkachev (reverse hect - whatever you call it) on bars but what about girls who haven't and just learn of the changes?? That isn't long to learn a big skill... Am I wrong?

Here's the thing, they are not exactly changes- it is just clarifying how they will take the deduction for the .2 up to composition level. Girls that aren't already working on these skills and perfecting them aren't going to be doing them this season in competition as the errors in a skill will add up to more than the .05 or .1 composition deduction. Most judges were already taking some type of composition deduction for no single bar release skill it just wasn't consistently applied.

 

[Gigi]

Most judges were already taking some type of composition deduction for no single bar release skill it just wasn't consistently applied.

I tried to read and understand it myself but this is all too technical! From reading the thread, are you saying that you if you don't have a same bar release it will be a .2 deduction? What about the kids who do the Shaposh instead? It's too late to make a change before season!

But I guess they need something to separate out the girls that are multi year L10s...

How does it separate the girls who are multi year L10s?

 

[Traci]

But how do you think it will impact first year level 10's? DD told me that if you don't have a skill requirement - you'll be scratched - not sure if that is true but that is what she said. I don't have a problem making the skills harder - but the timing of the notice....September?? That is late in the training season...in my opinion.

 

[chalkbowl]

As mentioned above these up to level deductions are not new as of September, they were originally implemented at the start of the new optional cycle (2013? 2014?). However, they are now clarifying them so all judges are taking the SAME deductions.

@Gigi missing a same bar release is not in and of itself a .2 deduction. If someone gives me some hypothetical bar routines I'm happy to apply these composition deductions to them for you. These composition deductions are NOT the same as the special requirements for level 10. I can't imagine a coach scratching a gymnast for not being able to meet all special requirements AND having a 10.0 SV AND having zero deductions on their routine...no one would be competing

The goal is essentially to reward the athletes who are doing harder skills in their routines. So yes, sometimes this means a multi-year level 10 is going to be scoring slightly higher than a first year level 10 because they have been training harder skills for longer.

 

[Traci]

Okay - I am a gymnastics dummy but I think DD is doing - Bars, Clear/free hip to Shootver to (hopefully) handstand, Chinese situp to Tkachev (reverse hect)to giant/giant double layout dismount. Beam, her series is back handspring layout/stepout - then she has a front tuck/wolf jump, back tuck then roundoff to double back or 1 & 1/.2 ((I think)). Floor, I honestly don't know -- I know double tucks, double pikes, a Rudy/front double fulls and 1 1/2 front punch layout-- have all been mentioned. Vault - she's does a yurchenko layout/halves/fulls.
I am probably missing something in all of these!!

Okay - I will just continue to be a gymnastics dummy -- it's easier.

 

[Natasha]

But how do you think it will impact first year level 10's? DD told me that if you don't have a skill requirement - you'll be scratched - not sure if that is true but that is what she said. I don't have a problem making the skills harder - but the timing of the notice....September?? That is late in the training season...in my opinion.

These are NOT skill requirements. This .2 is only one of a multitude of composition deductions. Skill requirements are the 4 requirements for each routine that are a .5 deduction off of the start value and the required number of A,B,C, skills etc....I am sure the coach is only talking about requirements for start values which is completely separate from composition deductions. There are other composition deductions that are not being talked about much because they are not being spelled out right now, but the .2 'up to level' deduction here is no more important than all the other deductions..i.e.- balance of acro and dance, not having all the hardest skills in one part of the routine, expression and quality of movement, etc, etc, etc,....please do not freak out about this .02 just because it is now spelled out.... AND, FYI, these "up to level" deductions are currently expecting more than NCAA....which is why I say it is to help separate out and reward girls doing the most difficult routines. I would expect that MANY first year L10s as well as repeaters will take a partial .02 deduction.

 

[Natasha]

I tried to read and understand it myself but this is all too technical! From reading the thread, are you saying that you if you don't have a same bar release it will be a .2 deduction? What about the kids who do the Shaposh instead? It's too late to make a change before season!

No, I'm just saying they didn't previously have guidelines spelled out, so "Up to level" deduction was very inconsistently applied and subjective. A Shaposh is a D, so not necessarily a deduction, depending on rest of routine, and if it is now a deduction, it would likely be .05, again, depending on rest of routine.

How does it separate the girls who are multi year L10s?

I just meant it rewards the girls who already are doing the most difficult skills and doing them very well.

 

[Natasha]

Okay - I am a gymnastics dummy but I think DD is doing - Bars, Clear/free hip to Shootver to (hopefully) handstand, Chinese situp to Tkachev (reverse hect)to giant/giant double layout dismount. Beam, her series is back handspring layout/stepout - then she has a front tuck/wolf jump, back tuck then roundoff to double back or 1 & 1/.2 ((I think)). Floor, I honestly don't know -- I know double tucks, double pikes, a Rudy/front double fulls and 1 1/2 front punch layout-- have all been mentioned. Vault - she's does a yurchenko layout/halves/fulls.
I am probably missing something in all of these!!

Okay - I will just continue to be a gymnastics dummy -- it's easier.

Your DD sounds more than prepared to meet all the requirements and bonus and composition...those are a lot of big skills!

 

[sce]

I just meant it rewards the girls who already are doing the most difficult skills and doing them very well.

Which is the point of clarifying the up to level deduction. Those who are performing what is considered "up to level" should score higher. For many, being able to compete up to level routines, it might take being in their second or third year of level 10.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

It's a real bummer to see that a D or E dismount will only gain a whopping .05 advantage over a child doing a freehip, toe shoot direct to double back C, C C (which is light years easier). USAG really blew this one..... Sad But at the same time they made level 9 dismounts harder???? makes no sense to me.... Oh when oh when will they start rewarding the more difficult routines....

 

[Gigi]

I don't think its all put together yet but probably these skills, shaposh to bail, toe Hecht, full out dismount.

 

[iluvgym]

It's a real bummer to see that a D or E dismount will only gain a whopping .05 advantage over a child doing a freehip, toe shoot direct to double back C, C C (which is light years easier). USAG really blew this one..... Sad But at the same time they made level 9 dismounts harder???? makes no sense to me.... Oh when oh when will they start rewarding the more difficult routines....

Can you clarify on how they made level 9 dismounts harder? I missed that one so if you can point me in the right direction would be helpful! Thanks

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Can you clarify on how they made level 9 dismounts harder? I missed that one so if you can point me in the right direction would be helpful! Thanks

A full is now a .1 deduction. Which is fine , but then why not reward the more difficult dismounts in 10 as well...

 

[Gymmamabear]

Wait a full dismount off what is a .1 deduction? Off which apparatus? I thought a roundoff full was a standard full value dismount for 9?