I know it's old news but I gotta ask.....

[Aussie_coach]

Looking on the chalkbucket, i have seen posts about children who go to the Texas to train, and they dont use heat or air conditioning. I find that a little disturbing. These may or may not be warning signs. Who knows. I don't think that this abuse is as prevelant because times have changed and people do seem to be more overprotective of their children, or so I hope.

I don't think this is abuse, where I live it is generally a lot hotter than in Texas, but no gyms have air conditioning. Building are built in a very open plan way due to the heat and would be impossibly expensive to air condition.

This is considered normal.

 

[gymjourneymom]

Well, it's a little unbalanced. That kind of stuff does happen, unfortunately, although also the book is somewhat outdated and there have been some major shifts in thinking and decentralization even within our system (more NTCs, more Olympic caliber coaches and programs). Now it would be uncommon for a kid to move away from their family to stay in another state away from their parents to train. Many elites don't move at all now, others who do move, the family relocates with them.

That said I think there are still plenty of programs that aren't creating positive experiences on net (there are always going to be isolated negative things in gymnastics, misunderstandings, hardships, whatever).

Probably a more interesting source to me is Reviving Ophelia. A lot of these things have to do with innate personality traits that are fueled by environmental factors. Parents have to be aware of coaching that's just objectively bad or abusive, but they also have to be aware that any high level gymnastics is an intensely high pressure environment and sometimes even the best you can do is not enough to prevent the development of self destructive patterns of behavior or emotional and physical burnout (often leading to other problems...). Honestly, around 18, I just kind of burned out of life. Three years later I'm a completely different person, which is fine, but the path I was on was unsustainable for my personality (I take things hard, very sensitive, prone to instability and self destructive behavior). I just couldn't live like that anymore. I think most of the coaches (barring one, who was abusive in multiple ways, but only had him a relatively short time over context of time in gymnastics) wanted the best for me, and my parents never pushed me, but I just wasn't cut out for some of the aspects of it...which is fine, I just stopped doing gymnastics after high school.

So there are abusive coaches, yeah, I've had them. But that's not the only issue. I think it's frustrating and maybe impossible to convey to people who didn't grow up doing gymnastics what it's like. I have an almost instant understanding with anyone who did high level gymnastics and the things they say. But I think people who have never tried it almost kind of have this thinking like it's possible, and it's not always possible, sometimes you just can't do things because you just can't (physically, emotionally, whatever). I think they develop some understanding over the years but I still think my parents don't really understand, they think you can just learn this or that if you want to and you're willing to try. Or I could just go compete in gymnastics now (I could - there are outlets available - but I don't want to. I can't.) It doesn't work that way. I can't even explain what I'm trying to say, it's just like this understanding. Even kids at the lower levels often don't understand, they think going through the levels is just a matter of being taught, and it's so much more than that. Some of it just luck. Honestly. Better hope you don't need career ending surgery by age 12 - I've seen that from girls with easily elite potential.

Gymdog, I want to thank you for sharing your personal journey with us! I think you are right, there are certain personality traits that can become more pronouced during gymnastics training. Lets face it gymnastics training is hard on so many different levels! That intensity can really push one to the brink! Some people(coaches, parents, gymnast) just don't know how to handle those traits as the show up. I really DO get what you are saying! I understand when you say you "just can't do gymnastics anymore". That is the healthy thing for YOU & I'm glad you realize that, even if others don't understand it! You are a strong person!!! And it looks like you are still enjoying the sport through coaching!!! I'm sure all of your experiences have helped you to develop sound, encouraging & understanding coaching techniques!!! Even without doing gymnastics yourself anymore, you still have A LOT to give to the sport!!! Good for you!!!

 

[LizzieLac]

So there are abusive coaches, yeah, I've had them. But that's not the only issue. I think it's frustrating and maybe impossible to convey to people who didn't grow up doing gymnastics what it's like. I have an almost instant understanding with anyone who did high level gymnastics and the things they say. But I think people who have never tried it almost kind of have this thinking like it's possible, and it's not always possible, sometimes you just can't do things because you just can't (physically, emotionally, whatever). I think they develop some understanding over the years but I still think my parents don't really understand, they think you can just learn this or that if you want to and you're willing to try. Or I could just go compete in gymnastics now (I could - there are outlets available - but I don't want to. I can't.) It doesn't work that way. I can't even explain what I'm trying to say, it's just like this understanding. Even kids at the lower levels often don't understand, they think going through the levels is just a matter of being taught, and it's so much more than that. Some of it just luck. Honestly. Better hope you don't need career ending surgery by age 12 - I've seen that from girls with easily elite potential.

Gymdog, I think you make a great point in this paragraph - one I can certainly relate to. I ran track and cross country in college. Running is one of those sports that is also misunderstood, but for different reasons. People think that since all people can run (i.e. mechanically make the running motion) then all that is standing between a runner and excellence is training. Just traing harder, just run more, just run faster. There are so many things that come in the way - talent being one of them. Yes, some people have running talent, natural ability and others don't. I didnt. I had to work VERY hard to run at my level and nerves I felt before races was overwhelming because I knew I was "outalented" by most of the runners around me. And the desire to have huge improvements in times can be too much emotionally.

When I got out of college, I couldn't even go near a road race for years. There was no such thing as 5k "fun run." I would always think about times and race strategy and what if I didn't live up to my own expectations. I still ran by myself for exercise and because I love being outdoors. But it took close to 15 years before I started doing road races.

Anyway, your post made a lot of sense to me and made me think that what happens can be "percieved abuse." By that I mean, the coaches who do push hard, but because of an athlete's emotions, maybe past (though unrelated experiences), fears or whatever they preceive the coach as being abusive.

 

[Bella's Mom]

So here's a follow up question then...and I hope I'm not going to get in trouble for sidetracking/hijacking my own thread LOL..... but

How does a gymnast train at an elite level in a healthful manner? Is it realistic? Impossible? Does any elite have a story that doesn't include verbal or emotional abuse? Or has elite gymnastics evolved to such a point that you can't "play nice" as a coach and get your girl to the top?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i will not comment about the authenticity of those books except to tell you all HOGWASH.

they are disturbing BECAUSE so much was fabricated or embellished.

do yourselves a favor and read something else...

 

[gymdog]

So here's a follow up question then...and I hope I'm not going to get in trouble for sidetracking/hijacking my own thread LOL..... but

How does a gymnast train at an elite level in a healthful manner? Is it realistic? Impossible? Does any elite have a story that doesn't include verbal or emotional abuse? Or has elite gymnastics evolved to such a point that you can't "play nice" as a coach and get your girl to the top?

Sure, but I think we also have to be realistic. Overall healthy doesn't mean that nothing will ever be hurtful or whatever. This is very intense, a lot of time, it's like a family. Every parent has probably said something in the moment they've regretted (multiple times) but for most people this isn't scarring and doesn't prevent them from growing up to live a productive life without recurring issues. What matters is overall having a caring environment, knowing when to push to get good results but when to back off, and being aware of trouble (i.e. a kid prone to eating disorders).

No coach or training model is ever going to be perfect but I think it's okay to take the good with the bad as long as the goal remains helping shape a productive human being/personal growth. When everything deviates from that (i.e. the end justifies the means mindset, with the end being an elite gymnast) then you have a problem.

 

[momocay]

I don't think this is abuse, where I live it is generally a lot hotter than in Texas, but no gyms have air conditioning. Building are built in a very open plan way due to the heat and would be impossibly expensive to air condition.

This is considered normal.

I have to stop to consider the number of football players, in recent years, have died from working to hard in the heat. Heat stroke, dehydration etc... That is why I think that is so dangerous. Personally, if my daughter were required to work out in a gym that was in excess of 100 degrees, Id find someplace else.

 

[flipper's fan]

So here's a follow up question then...and I hope I'm not going to get in trouble for sidetracking/hijacking my own thread LOL..... but

How does a gymnast train at an elite level in a healthful manner? Is it realistic? Impossible? Does any elite have a story that doesn't include verbal or emotional abuse? Or has elite gymnastics evolved to such a point that you can't "play nice" as a coach and get your girl to the top?

It's not in a book, but I had the opportunity to hear Courney Kupets (2004 Olympics) and Domenique Moceanu (1996) address about 100 young gymnasts this summer. Their experiences were quite different- Dominique was moved away at age 10 to train as a junior elite, Courtney decided to train for the olympics only about a year ahead of the games. Courtney trained at Hill's in Maryland and states she was a level 10 and doing very well when her coach suggested that she work toward the olympic team and she thought to herself, yeah, I might really be able to do this. After the Olympics she and Hill's teammate and fellow Olympian Courtney McCool enrolled at Georgia. Courtney spoke very fondly of her time at Georgia, best experience of her life, best coaching, and you are only allowed to train 20 hours/week at NCAA.

Now there are some people who find the training at Hill's grueling and they are known for being selective, but I think Courtney's story is inspiring and does not contain any hints at abuse or exploitation.

 

[gymdog]

Anyway, your post made a lot of sense to me and made me think that what happens can be "percieved abuse." By that I mean, the coaches who do push hard, but because of an athlete's emotions, maybe past (though unrelated experiences), fears or whatever they preceive the coach as being abusive.

Isn't all abuse "perceived" then? Who defines the standard of abuse? That seems like kind of a slippery slope. Many abusers probably don't have the intention of being abusers, but that doesn't really change anything. In my opinion if something has the effect of abuse, it's abuse. I think it's possible to tell when you're "breaking" a child in your care (any level of care) unless you're truly delusional enough to have lost touch with reality (happens, but not always). You might see is the "end justifies the means" defense: it was done because they thought that they were getting the child to something better in the end, that would...erase it all? Make it worth it? Who knows. And some people are just mean and bitter, and they take that out on others.

Intention isn't 100% of everything. If the child is traumatized by it, it's wrong. You can't treat every child the same...it seems kind of like victim blaming to say they were unhappy and emotional so they just perceived their situation as bad.