WAG Is this the norm for training in the TOPs, Hopes & Elite Community???

[myeyeson_u]

I am really hoping that I'm not overreacting. But I'm hoping some coaches who train girls going this route or parents who's kids go this route can shed some light on this.

After several trials, my dd has finally settled HOPEFULLY at her new gym home. She'd expressed the desire to go the elite path for quite some time now. However, the gym she was at told me they weren't doing the elite program anymore. And the one that's at the gym now is the only one they're going to continue to train because she's already elite. Long story short, I pulled dd from the gym to find her a gym home that could offer her what she was looking for. We found a place that dd did a trial at to see if it's something she could handle (training and hours). And so far she's cool w/ it. She mentions how hard/tough the training is. But that has never been an issue for her. Oh, backtrack, I also pulled her from her former gym because according to several coaches who have elites at their gym or currently training girls to qualify, she's not as advanced as she needs to be for her age. And since her old spot wasn't going to modify her training, I had to make moves.

Tonight I asked her how practice was. She mentioned the usual (it being tough. But she likes that coach lets her try new skills). She also told me that she had to climb the rope 20 times today. I asked her why. She said because I fell doing my giants. And I said ok? And she said anytime you fall, from whatever event it is you're doing, coach makes you climb the rope 5 times. I thought that was a bit extreme. And she also told me that if you cry, he threatens to send you home. A girl split the beam and wanted to cry, but didn't. He asked her if she split the beam? She said yes. And instead of asking was she ok, he blamed her for doing whatever it was wrong. I was so bothered by this. It could've been her fault. But is it wrong to see if the girl is ok? And the rope climb for every fall. And the no crying. Where dd came from, her coaches were tough and strict, yes. But they were never disciplined to this extreme. Or is this the norm when you're going this path? She also has this thing in her head that if you're not yelling to correct a skill, then it's not effective. That hurts my heart! One gym she did a trial at, she loved it! And the coaches loved her and gave corrections, but never yelled. So she felt that it wasn't effective. We didn't go w/ this gym because of the commute/location. And at the moment, trying to shift things around would be too much.

Anywho, I'm really trying to see the good in this. As in a way of making them better and tougher gymnast. But I just can't seem to come to terms w/ her having to climb the rope 5x for every fall. I asked her what she thought and her take on it. And she said she doesn't know yet since she hasn't been there long. But I'm afraid that she won't tell me either.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

So.... according to several coaches at the old gym (who have elites at their gym or currently training girls to qualify), your DD is not as advanced as she needs to be for her age to go Elite"...... You didn't want to hear that so you left a really good gym and went to this one.... And now you are at the new gym where they are super strict (which is what your DD is requesting) and your unhappy? Sorry, but you made the decision right? confused

 

[GlobalNomad]

How old is your daughter? What level is she? For a child who is older and for whom a giant is a basic skill, 5 rope climbs for missing may be appropriate and help her gain focus. For a young child who is just learning the skill, maybe not.

Also, for splitting the beam, it depends on how severe it was. My kid seems to do this quite often, but it's very rarely severe enough that she has to stop training or start crying. At one gym, crying was only allowed when there was physical injury. The coach's reasoning for this was that he needed to be able to quickly distinguish injury from frustration. At our current gym, there is no such rule, and the girls cry for any reason at all. My daughter finds all of the crying distracting, and prefers a no cry gym.

We have never been to an "elite" gym, so I don't know what is normal there. I do know that I have at times seen extra conditioning given for doing a skill incorrectly at any gym she has been to.

 

[gymdoc]

We are not an elite gym - we're at the Y, so not even close - but the girls do rope climbs if they fall on a skill that they should have mastered, if it what they did was unsafe or if they are on beam and don't "fight" to stay on. They are L4, ages 8-11, so I don't think it is out of the ordinary. They only do 2 climbs, but again, we're not elite

 

[profmom]

That coaching strategy ought to go really great when they get to the point of having issues with their acro series on beam or making their flipping vaults.

Cosign CoachP. Is this going to work for your DD long term? Forget about elite for the moment. That's a long way off and very few make it. What will keep her in the sport and advancing at an appropriate pace for her?

 

[myeyeson_u]

@coachp I also said that her former gym is not training anymore Elites, per the head coach/team director. Which is why she was pulled from that gym.

 

[wallinbl]

We left a gym that is like what you describe because my opinion was that I didn't want my DD to learn that it was okay for people to treat her or anyone that way. She's around them enough hours that she's surely being influenced by it, and while there were many ways in which they could be considered "good people", they had an ongoing habit of doing and saying things that were just unacceptable. Some amount of interactions with male (or female for some) adults are going to shape what she seeks in a partner, and I don't want that to be what she sees as acceptable in terms of treatment of girls or women.

We're at a gym that has a very high level of success, and they're quality human beings. Is practice hard? DD (and others that have come over to trial) says it's harder than the other place, and at no point are we questioning the morality of the coaching staff. You can train girls hard and well without treating them like they're less than human.

 

[myeyeson_u]

@GlobalNomad She is 10 and will be competing L8 next season. She's going to do a 7 score out meet after the season is over. Coach wants her to work on skills and perfect them. Then do the score out. And she hasn't worked giants consistently where she was at. But she did learn them. But I can't speak for the reason for the fall yesterday. Perhaps being out of the gym trying to find the right fit, and not being able to train and work those skills???? But anywho, she knows how to do a giant. It just needs some polishing!

 

[myeyeson_u]

@profmom Dd appears to like the training. I tend to find that the gyms we've gone to for her to do the trial, she compared them to her old gym (the size, equipment, coaching, the girls; etc). So have I. So she wasn't at 100% w/ the decision (she was at about 70%). But it was enough for her to want to stay. Since the first gym option couldn't happen. She works hard. Regardless of how she's feeling or if she has any injuries. She finds a way. And the coach even mentioned that when I dropped her off yesterday. However, last night is when she had to do the rope climb for the fall off giants. I asked her why she fell. She said she didn't know. She has never fallen while training them. At least that I know of. She fell doing those twice. And I believe trying to connect her beam series. She took it like a champ. She just shared it w/ me on the way home. And I was a little on the apprehensive side of things.

This is all new to me. And could be the norm for such training. I don't know. Where she was at before, the coaches weren't angelic either. But they didn't make them do rope climbs for falling off beam or bars.

 

[Quadqueen]

Unfortunately, this happens sometimes at my DD's gym, which does not have an elite program but has a strong optional program. IMO, there is a point where some of this stuff crosses the line of acceptable. But then again, I had no notions that my DD was going elite, as an 11 year old L8.

Do you have the option of watching practice? If so, I would try to - see what you observe.

 

[profmom]

Based on what you're telling us about your daughter, who's late in compulsories or a brand new optional, these guys are pretty old school. If you insist that you must stay at that gym because they have an elite program, I think your choice is between having a child with a shot at being elite or a child who is happy and emotionally healthy. Granted, we are going on very little information here, but that's how it sounds to me. If this tiny slice really is a representative sample, the shine will wear off, no matter how ambitious your DD is. I agree with Quadqueen. You need more information about what is going on.

What percentage of girls who start in your gym's elite program end up graduating from high school still doing gymnastics?

 

[wallinbl]

@profmomThis is all new to me. And could be the norm for such training. I don't know.

It's not. Honestly, the coaches are emotionally stunted. They can't deal with the fact that the gymnasts are human, so they outlaw human behavior in the name of discipline or working hard. You can't ignore someone's humanity - either it boils over and explodes out at some point, it atrophies and goes away, or the girls start compartmentalizing like someone with PTSD. If they promise the parents "elite", many will let them get away with it.

Sorry for sounding harsh. We stayed in too long, and wouldn't want anyone else to waste time doing the same.

 

[GYM0M]

I would not classify DD's gym an elite gym, but she is training for TOPS. If she falls or misses a shape, there is conditioning attached to it, but not 5 rope climbs for every fall. Usually one rope climb for a fall or 20 hollow body rockers or handstand on the wall for 30 secs or push-ups. But her coaches are not negative about it. At the beginning of rotation, it is expressed what is expected during the workout and the additional training (not punishment or consequences) required if the gymnast misses the expected skills. For me, it's all about the approach. If it's negative, the child will perceive it as negative. Positive approaches are handled and processed much better. However, you did say some other coaches sd she is behind. Is it possible that her new coach is trying to catch her up?

 

[myeyeson_u]

@profmom Dd is new to this gym. As in yesterday she said she wanted to stay w/ the gym after three trial days. Today will make a week. The gym is new (almost two years). But the coach isn't. He was somewhere else and opened up his own gym. He's gotten one of his girls' qualified elite compulsory (She's trying to qualify Hopes). And I never said there were any elites at this location. The first gym she did the trial at was/is an elite gym, has one. I say is/was because I don't know if the girl has to qualify elite again. Or she remains elite. Not sure how that works. And this girl is 13 I believe. And the only girl who's qualified elite so far. The gym dd was at, has an elite gymnast. But is not offering the program anymore. And that girl will be 16 in May. She hasn't graduated yet. And she's the only girl at that gym who's gone elite. So there is no percentage to give.

Dd hasn't expressed that she's unhappy as she's just starting at the gym. She seems to like the training. I don't think she really knows what to make of everything since she's new. She's put on more hours, she's with a new group of girls, the coach and having to adjust to a new training style. However, she's expressed to me that she wants to give it a shot.


@Quadqueen She has expressed this for quite some time. But I'm the one who held off on it. As I thought that she saw the glitz and glamour of it all on the surface. But she hasn't let up on it. So I decided to move forward w/ it. I do have the option to watch. But when I drop her off she'll ask me if I'm staying. I say no. And she says good. So I don't think she wants me to watch. And there is no way for me to be low key because of the way the gym is setup. She'll see that I'm there. But I will let her know that I'm going to run some errands and will show up earlier than usual so that I can watch some of it.

 

[bogwoppit]

He's gotten one of his girls' qualified elite compulsory (She's trying to qualify Hopes). And I never said there were any elites at this location. The first gym she did the trial at was/is an elite gym, has one. I say is/was because I don't know if the girl has to qualify elite again. Or she remains elite. Not sure how that works. And this girl is 13 I believe. And the only girl who's qualified elite so far.

She is not elite if she has not qualified to Hopes, and even then she will be Hopes not junior elite.

Qualifying elite involves scoring a certain score at both a compulsory meet and an optional style meet, All hopefuls have to do it. If you pass the score at both meets then you get to say you are elite.

However in order to compete these elite meets, classic or Championships, you again need to make a certain score. One that is higher than the score to qualify elite.

After that only the top 6 girls from Junior and Senior at Champs are named to the National Team. They are the elites hat represent the US internationally. There are many, many elites who never compete for the US.

Besides that point, if after a one week trial I was having this many doubts I would not stay. The coach sounds old school and I do not believe in paying people to abuse my kids no matter how badly they say they want to be elite. Accepting those conditions is no guarantee of getting to elite anyway.

 

[myeyeson_u]

@wallinbl Thank you for your insight. The coach and I have a mutual acquaintance. She's told me about a little about him. She said that I'd love him. And so would my daughter. I'm wondering if she's ever seen him train? I'm still trying to feel him out. And so is dd. Dd loved her old coach. He yelled. But he said to us watching practice from up top, it seems as though he's yelling because it's noisy on the floor. That could be so. But I wasn't convinced. She'd also tell me he'd belittle some of the girls. Make comments about their training. And how they wouldn't make it far. She said he'd never said it to her and a few other girls though. He was tough, yes. I thought that the training she received from him (he coached bars and vault) was great! But I liked him most outside of the gym.

I'd like to think that there's a difference in being tough/hard on the girls. And trying to break them down mentally and physically. And that's what I don't want my baby to go through.

 

[Quadqueen]

I'm not questioning your DD's or your motivations to try for elite.

Even if my daughter did not want me to stay, if I knew of any kind of potential verbal/emotional abuse, I would tell her I'm staying - or not, but if she asks why you stayed, explain why.

It is a big red flag to be having these concerns so early. And I agree with you that there's a line that shouldn't be crossed by coaches who are pushing their gymnasts to get better. If there is any kind of mental abuse, I'd get out of there.

 

[myeyeson_u]

@bogwoppit I never said the girl was elite. I don't recall saying the girl would be junior elite either. I'm aware that you need to qualify elite compulsory and optional. Which is why I said she qualified elite compulsory. And that she's trying to qualify Hopes. This is the current gym. The gym dd was at HAS an elite gymnast. The first gym dd did the trial at also has one. Or if she has to re-qualify, had one.

 

[myeyeson_u]

For me, it's all about the approach. If it's negative, the child will perceive it as negative. Positive approaches are handled and processed much better.

I couldn't agree w/ you more. And that's my take on it. If he's telling them in the beginning what is expected and they don't adhere to it, then cool. However, I still think 5 rope climbs is excessive. I spoke to a mom who's daughter trained w/ the girl who's elite at our former gym. She said she doesn't think it's excessive at all. And that it could be worse. Really?! I'm certain he is trying to catch her up. She's been out of the gym for about two to three weeks. I mean, in between trials at different gyms she's gotten some training here and there. But not working on skills consistently.

 

[profmom]

I think we are all a little confused with all these different gyms. Let me see if I've got this right. Gym#1 is her former gym, which has a girl who is an elite, but refused to train your daugher for elite. Gym#2 is one you checked out but decided not to do -- that's the one with the girl who was elite but may need to re-qualify. Gym#3 is the one you have been at now for a week and has no elites but either has a program for elite hopefuls or a coach who has agreed explicitly to train your daughter for HOPES and down the road for elite compulsories. Is that it?

I guess I'm just surprised that you chose to go with the gym that has only been open for two years, though if I have this right, the coach was formerly at another gym. What is your coach's track record at the old gym for a) getting girls to HOPES and/or elite compulsories and having good outcomes there and, much more importantly b) guiding girls up through the sport to leave his gym/former gym as relatively healthy, happy high school graduates who still like gymnastics?