WAG Judges Question...

[Deleted member 18037]

. I’ve also sat at plenty of judges tables during our hosted meets over the years and have seen/heard the judges making note of a routine they felt was good and write down the score. If another routine came along, they would discuss if it was better than “the one”.

I would have serious problem with this. Seems a like it should be a violation. I’d be having a conversation with the higher ups in judging if I overheard that kind of discussion.

 

[duyetanh]

I would have serious problem with this. Seems a like it should be a violation. I’d be having a conversation with the higher ups in judging if I overheard that kind of discussion.

We have seen this too, and it really sucks.

 

[raenndrops]

This is how it is in my state, too, in fact all states in my Region.

ours too. Except Y Nationals where it is more like @GAgymmom stated.
I like that our coach picks the order. For Xcel Platinum and L6+, she asks who wants to go first on an event.
In L7, we had 2 girls (for the last half of the season) and they were sisters who took turns going first.
In Xcel Platinum, we had 3-5 girls, depending on the meet. For bars, YG competed 1st. On beam, she was last. On floor, she was 2nd. On vault she was always either 1st or last because we go by vault height

 

[raenndrops]

I would have serious problem with this. Seems a like it should be a violation. I’d be having a conversation with the higher ups in judging if I overheard that kind of discussion.

As long as they judged the first "good routine" fairly and then judged the later "good routine" fairly, then it would be fine.

 

[Lyddie27]

Yep, I've overheard a lot of judges' conversations - very common to say "that one got a 9.6, this one was better, gotta go at least 9.65"

"better" not necessarily meaning more difficult skills, but just overall performed better

across the board, it seems that the most important thing is to rank the gymnasts fairly (no, not get an "accurate score" according to the CoP), which would be fine, except for needing set scores to move up/quality to post-season meets in some states/regions

say in lvl 6 there are 2 routines, performed identically, but one has a tuck and one has a layout. will the layout one get scored higher? according to the CoP, no.

in real life, I've heard judges bemoan the fact that they can't give it a higher score. so they are aware (and I don't doubt that some "go rogue" and some unconsciously give the routine a higher score, because they figure that higher level skills = better gymnast => higher score)

it happens rarely, but it's against the rules at lvl 6 and 7

 

[duyetanh]

I firmly believe it happens as my kid has been on both sides of it. Last season she was on the low end on one event...this year I honestly felt a score she got at state on one of her events was too high. She threw and nailed a harder skill, and it truly seemed she was rewarded for it. Nothing we could do about it...this is the nature of the sport...we learned a long time ago back in the days of level 2 to let it go and build a snowman.

 

[sce]

What makes parents crazy is thinking that happens. What makes parents crazy is assuming.

Again,

Explain to me how a judge knows which age group the kid is in, what kind of day the gymmie is going to have. Even within rotation?
How do they put the fix in?

So what you are saying is you believe with multiple gyms in a rotation that it is assumed the gym that performs last in the rotation is the "better" gym. And that all coaches put the "poor performing gymnasts first followed by the best.

So the judge should expect that the last kid up should be the best performer at the best gym so they should somehow score they other gymnasts in a way to leave room for that kid to do the best in the rotation.

Yes I could see how that would make someone crazy.

Age group does not matter to the judge. They will still strive to ensure they give the highest score to the best routine. How that plays out at awards is a separate issue.

As well, there ya a bit of an idea if heaving room, in case the kids coming later are better. I have been at neetscwgere the scores in an event inflated with each rotation. Sad for the kid who went first, as the kids in the last rotation were receiving high scores on less clean routines. Now this does not always happen, but it has happened.

 

[Muddlethru]

How can you "reward" the routine you deem more difficult? You score as the routine is done. You can only score the routine presented.
So seriously when you actually start judging how do you plan to make that happen?

I'm sorry, but really? Your question puzzles me a bit. You don't think judges remember the routines and scores they've given throughout the day? You also don't think judges compare routines and base scores on routines they've seen. It happens all the time and is so simple. Who sees how scores are given, how deductions are taken? Judges have a lot of fudging power and can knit pick a routine to death to validate the score. At one of my daughter's meet this season. Two of her team mates competed before her got 9.2-9.250 for nicely executed piked yurchenko. My daughter did a laid out yurchenko and got a 9.5. I will tell you, she did not deserve that score. Her placement in the air was not that great and her landing was not good at all-two steps to the side (almost looked like a stumble). The vault performed by her teammates were much cleaner. I know in Level 10, her vault has a slightly higher start value, but only by .1. But it clearly was not a 9.5. She did her vault at another meet and stuck the landing and only got a 9.1. At that meet, there were girls twisting their yurchenkos. How do you think they judges did that?

I wouldn't say your coach was lying. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what was said, given that you acutally didn't hear the exchange. Perhaps the judges had form issues due to the crying. And perhaps the coach was about making it a learning opportunity about "keeping it together" as in it would of gone better had she taken a breath and calmly moved on.

Really again?!! How could you think I misunderstood what was said? Our coach personally told me what was said. Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully. I never claimed to know what transpired in the conversation between my daughter's coach and the judges. I merely stated what was said to me.

It is always a mystery even to veteran coaches how judges score. Why is that? Because there is no clear cut to discernible way to determine how scores are awarded. You can argue all you want but that is fact whether you believe it or not.

 

[Muddlethru]

That is a different scenario. The score numbers may be different but placement wise it all works out.

How can you question my previous posts about awarding scores, when you make a statement that clearly supports what I just said? You are just contradicting yourself. If they score routines as they go, how does placement eventually work out? It works out because judges do compare routines and base scores on routines previously performed.

It’s not just this topic- I think many of Deleted member 18037’s posts have that angry tone.

I agree wholeheartedly. I can add more to this but I will hold my tongue or fingers.

If the skills have the same Value part, and are the same level, there is no differentiating between the difficulty of the skill. A back tuck and a back layout are both A value parts on floor, so neither is "harder" or more difficult than the other. There's no bonus points either, until level 9, and it has to do with connecting skills. Only Level 10 has bonus points for performing certain valued skills, and in that case, the higher skill would get a bonus if the other factors were the same except for the value part.

Artistic deductions are not unwritten, and are in every level. Bra straps showing is a deduction if it continues after the first warning. Judges have to take the toes pointed deduction for the whole routine if there are more than a couple times that its noted, not on every skill. The crying can certainly affect her artistry, the same as a gymnast looking angry or bored.

Yes the value of the skill in the lower levels are the same but the execution is not; hence the difference in scores. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I did not say artistic deductions were unwritten but how they are given is unwritten and subject to the preferences of the particular judge. As I have said judging is not an exact science. They have a lot of power to make or break a routine particularly in a sport where a tenth of a point could make the difference between winning and placing second.

 

[profmom]

I would have serious problem with this. Seems a like it should be a violation. I’d be having a conversation with the higher ups in judging if I overheard that kind of discussion.

Why shouldn't judges privilege getting the ordinals right? Surely that's more important than whether a particular routine is a 9.2 or a 9.25, no?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Why shouldn't judges privilege getting the ordinals right? Surely that's more important than whether a particular routine is a 9.2 or a 9.25, no?

Each routine should be judged on its own merits. Of course that is just my particular opinion.

Why should those who go first be held to a higher standard?

Again you can go round and round. But the idea should be to keep as much bias out of judging as possible.

 

[LindyHopper]

In most traditional team sports, there is a clear winner. There is no debate who won a team sport, most goals/most points wins and everyone in the audience knows when goals/points are scored. When there is a panel of judges who decide who performed better, it can be arbitrary and prone to abuse, favoritism etc.

(Apologies for going way off topic)

Well, looking at professional football, and baseball... both professional teams in my area have had issues in the past 10 years or so where there is a debate about who won the game. And it all came down to a decision by the umpires and referees. Any time human perspective comes into play there are going to be multiple opinions about what "actually" happened. Some of these issues actually led to rule changes in the sports.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

How can you question my previous posts about awarding scores, when you make a statement that clearly supports what I just said? You are just contradicting yourself. If they score routines as they go, how does placement eventually work out? It works out because judges do compare routines and base scores on routines previously performed.
.

No you are misunderstanding. I was speaking about differences meet to meet. Not within the same meet.

My kid as an example was a top of the podium beam kid. Typical scores at the time 9-9.3 then we have the one meet aberration 9.6 she placed the same. Her beam wasn't all that different. Everyone's scores were higher then typical that day.

This year she is a lower podium finisher on floor. Scores in the 9.0-9.3 range. Had a meet 9.6. She finished 3rd. Typical placement for her. Clearly the floor judge was in a generous mood that day. Scores in the upper 9s were flying like Oprah's favorite things. You get a 9.8, you get a 9.9......

My point being, the judging wasn't just generous that day on floor or beam to my kid. It was generous to all the kids. However this judge was judging compared to what we typically saw, was higher than other judges but it was applied the same to all the kids competing that day.

My question was how are you going to judge the kids differently at the same meet?

It seems we have our answer based on other folks posts.

Judges hold back. Well then that would mean they are not scoring kids with what they deserve. And if you are unlucky enough to be the first through the rotation, in theory you are going to not score as well. And of course I get, well it is what it is. But in my opinon I still think that s*cks.

If the skills are the same and performed equally a judge should not take it upon themselves to decide which skill they deem harder.

 

[Muddlethru]

No you are misunderstanding. I was speaking about differences meet to meet. Not within the same meet.

My kid as an example was a top of the podium beam kid. Typical scores at the time 9-9.3 then we have the one meet aberration 9.6 she placed the same. Her beam wasn't all that different. Everyone's scores were higher then typical that day.

This year she is a lower podium finisher on floor. Scores in the 9.0-9.3 range. Had a meet 9.6. She finished 3rd. Typical placement for her. Clearly the floor judge was in a generous mood that day. Scores in the upper 9s were flying like Oprah's favorite things. You get a 9.8, you get a 9.9......

My point being, the judging wasn't just generous that day on floor or beam to my kid. It was generous to all the kids. However this judge was judging compared to what we typically saw, was higher than other judges but it was applied the same to all the kids competing that day.

My question was how are you going to judge the kids differently at the same meet?

It seems we have our answer based on other folks posts.

Judges hold back. Well then that would mean they are not scoring kids with what they deserve. And if you are unlucky enough to be the first through the rotation, in theory you are going to not score as well. And of course I get, well it is what it is. But in my opinon I still think that s*cks.

If the skills are the same and performed equally a judge should not take it upon themselves to decide which skill they deem harder.

No misunderstanding here and your question(s) have been addressed accurately and completely. I think you are not certain about what you are arguing or asking.

It seems clear from this thread that there is a division of opinion and it relates to the gymnastics level of the poster's gymnast You are perhaps arguing from a Level 5-6 standpoint and I am arguing from a Level 8-10. Judging is different particularly in Level 9 and even more complicated in Level 10; and perhaps that is where the discrepancy and lack of understanding lies.

 

[raenndrops]

It seems clear from this thread that there is a division of opinion and it relates to the gymnastics level of the poster's gymnast You are perhaps arguing from a Level 5-6 standpoint and I am arguing from a Level 8-10. Judging is different particularly in Level 9 and even more complicated in Level 10; and perhaps that is where the discrepancy and lack of understanding lies.

But the OP was talking L6-L7ish. EVERYONE knows that one you hit L8+, the judging all changes... with up to level deductions and all.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Judging is different particularly in Level 9 and even more complicated in Level 10; and perhaps that is where the discrepancy and lack of understanding lies.

The original question was about judging in L7, which is what I answered.

Addressing upper optionals muddies the water. You misunderstood the question asked. The OP did not ask about L9/10. They asked about L7

In L7, all required skills met performed with the same execution gets essentially the same score.

Now please don’t argue about .1 if the judge blinked and missed a bent leg.

Required skills, same kind of execution/presentation essentially the same score.

9.2/9.1, not 8.5 vs 9.2 because the first kid did a BWOWO and the Second did BWOBHS

 

[3rd_time_around]

say in lvl 6 there are 2 routines, performed identically, but one has a tuck and one has a layout. will the layout one get scored higher? according to the CoP, no.

A tuck and a layout are the exact same value, one is not "harder" than the other, one is not "higher" than the other (according to the code of points). An A skill is an A skill. It's about how it is executed. Now if we were comparing a back tuck to a full, that is different, as the full is a harder skill. That would be an A vs a B skill. But A vs A, they have the same value.

 

[MILgymFAM]

A tuck and a layout are the exact same value, one is not "harder" than the other, one is not "higher" than the other (according to the code of points). An A skill is an A skill. It's about how it is executed. Now if we were comparing a back tuck to a full, that is different, as the full is a harder skill. That would be an A vs a B skill. But A vs A, they have the same value.

When it comes to L6/7, A vs B (if all requirements are met) is still equal. If one kid does a robhsbt and one does a robhsfull- and both are executed at the same level of proficiency- they should garner the exact same score.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

A tuck and a layout are the exact same value, one is not "harder" than the other, one is not "higher" than the other (according to the code of points). An A skill is an A skill. It's about how it is executed. Now if we were comparing a back tuck to a full, that is different, as the full is a harder skill. That would be an A vs a B skill. But A vs A, they have the same value.

The OP stated it was forward tumbling. Front tuck and front layout don't have the same value

 

[wandrewsjr]

Let me add something to this thread. Judges have up to 0.2 in dynamics to take at the end of a routine(all levels, JO and Xcel). It isnt defined. What is dynamics?