Keeping whole team at same level

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Jennemmy

Proud Parent
Mar 30, 2009
137
Region 6
We just learned that no one is moving up in compulsories at our gym - including gymnasts that came in top 5 at states. Any idea what the advantage of doing that would be?
 
G

gymnut1

The only real reason I can think of it that none of the girls have the skills good enough to compete the next level.

The advantage to the gym is that it is easy. The girls don't need to learn anything new, they are already competant and know the routines, they should do very well and make the gym look good, they will win alot both individually and as a team.

But there may be other issues - I would be brave and ask. Try and phrase it gently and politely, you are entitled to know.

After all it is not a very good advert for their coaching if they can't even advance a single girl this season. Maybe they haven't thought of that!
 

Aussie_coach

Staff member
Gold Membership
Coach
Proud Parent
Gymnast
Club Owner / Manager
Jan 4, 2008
4,016
Success at one level does not guarantee success at the next level. It could be that the girls are not prepared skill wise. A level 4 could be the top in the state but they need to be able to do a lot more to compete at level 5 and the same goes for 5 into 6.

It's important to realize that to make a program work, the needs of the gym and the coaches are important too. Perhaps in the past they have moved people up based on availability of space at the next level. Maybe none of their older optionals are moving on and there is simply no way to accommodate them. Maybe they are losing some key coaches and can't increase the hours.

Maybe they are changing their methods of coaching. Perhaps they want to do it more like we do in Australia where all gymnasts are generally expected to be masters of all skills in their current level and just maintaining them while spending most of their time uptraining the harder skills.
 

bogwoppit

Gold Membership
Feb 26, 2007
16,879
If the girls have the skills for the next level with good form ad they have done that well at States I would expect them to move up.

However if they are missing skills they may just not be ready.

There are a number of clubs who hold girls back to win, hold girls back because they want to have large numbers at one level etc. It is unethical and is done purely for selfsih reasons.

I agree that the fact that they cannot move up one girl does not male the programme look good.

I too would have to ask, though only if it was affecting my child, why isn't she moving up, what exactly does she need to do to get to level X.

Good luck. Poor communication is the number one complaint parents have about thier gym!
 

Jennemmy

Proud Parent
Mar 30, 2009
137
Region 6
I think the parents are a little scared to ask what the heck. We have girls (including my dd) who have all of the skills to move up. Most of our girls scored 35 or higher at states. I believe my daughter actually does the 6 routines better bc her tucks, bwo on beam and flyaway are sooo high. At states last year one of the judge/announcers read the score of the 1aa (38.250) and said "its time for someone to move up". So we think there has to be something bigger than the individual going on right now. :confused:
 

bogwoppit

Gold Membership
Feb 26, 2007
16,879
THen it is clear you need to ask why. IF my DD had all the skills that well and wasn't being moved up I would want a very good reason.NOt that I can think of a good reason.

Google the term sandbagging!

DO you have any other gym choices?
 

bookworm

Gold Membership
Proud Parent
I think the parents are a little scared to ask what the heck. We have girls (including my dd) who have all of the skills to move up. Most of our girls scored 35 or higher at states. I believe my daughter actually does the 6 routines better bc her tucks, bwo on beam and flyaway are sooo high. At states last year one of the judge/announcers read the score of the 1aa (38.250) and said "its time for someone to move up". So we think there has to be something bigger than the individual going on right now. :confused:

So let me get this straight...this girl, with an AA of 38+ AND her level 6 skills is NOT moving up? If I were you and my daughter had the skills for the next level and I didn't get an answer to why no one was moving up, I would be moving to a different gym where she would move up. Waste of time to repeat a level with the scenario you describe.
 
B

Bella's Mom

I wouldn't be a part of a gym environment where I didn't feel like I could approach my child's instructor OR the head coach with my questions. You are paying this person to help your child reach whatever goals she has set for herself. S/he works for YOU (universal you, not going after the OP personally) and should be accountable to you about your child.

If I were in these shoes, I would flat out ask why with the scores received is MY child (no mention of other kids) not moving up. I would do it with a nice attitude and one of curiosity rather than challenging her authority/judgment. And then really listen to her/his answer. And also what s/he doesn't say. If you feel like the reasons are legit, then ask what skills need to be improved. If you feel like you're getting shafted, I'd consider moving to a gym more in line with my principles.
 
B

BlairBob

Another question to ask is if it is the lack of girls who would be able to compete in L6 that is the reason.
 

mariposa

Proud Parent
Proud Parent
Sep 25, 2007
3,528
Another question to ask is if it is the lack of girls who would be able to compete in L6 that is the reason.

Just wondering why this would be an issue? We just had ONE girl compete at a meet for her level, she was the only one ready (2nd year) and the coach went with her and she competed by herself. Should the coach have not let her compete just because the other girls aren't ready? Should she be moved to the next level where she isn't ready, will struggle, but will have a team to compete with? As a parent it doesn't make any sense at me, can you tell me as a coach how it makes sense? I am sure there are reasons because I have heard of girls being held back or moved up because they didn't have at least 3 girls to compete for that level and I just don't get it. I have been to many meets where there are just 1 or 2 girls competing for a team in a given level.

To the OP, if my daughter had all the next level skills and could do them well/safely, and had done well at the previous level, I would definitely want to know why she wasn't moving to the next level. Good luck asking and figuring it all out.
 

twisting007bigflip

Coach
Proud Parent
Apr 5, 2010
208
Just wondering why this would be an issue? We just had ONE girl compete at a meet for her level, she was the only one ready (2nd year) and the coach went with her and she competed by herself. Should the coach have not let her compete just because the other girls aren't ready? Should she be moved to the next level where she isn't ready, will struggle, but will have a team to compete with? As a parent it doesn't make any sense at me, can you tell me as a coach how it makes sense? I am sure there are reasons because I have heard of girls being held back or moved up because they didn't have at least 3 girls to compete for that level and I just don't get it. I have been to many meets where there are just 1 or 2 girls competing for a team in a given level.

To the OP, if my daughter had all the next level skills and could do them well/safely, and had done well at the previous level, I would definitely want to know why she wasn't moving to the next level. Good luck asking and figuring it all out.

travel to and from meet, hotel, food, time away from home or work...It wouldn't be lucrative for a gym to pay a coach for a meet session and travel and food only to coach one kid...
 
M

Megley

Just wondering why this would be an issue? We just had ONE girl compete at a meet for her level, she was the only one ready (2nd year) and the coach went with her and she competed by herself. Should the coach have not let her compete just because the other girls aren't ready? Should she be moved to the next level where she isn't ready, will struggle, but will have a team to compete with? As a parent it doesn't make any sense at me, can you tell me as a coach how it makes sense? I am sure there are reasons because I have heard of girls being held back or moved up because they didn't have at least 3 girls to compete for that level and I just don't get it. I have been to many meets where there are just 1 or 2 girls competing for a team in a given level.


Mariposa, my dd was in this situation last year and we were told that you need at least 3 (or 4?) gymnasts to have enough gymnasts to field a team and that the gym wanted a solid team at the State meet. Apparently, how they do at States is important to them. They did let my dd and a couple of other girls compete one or two Level 6 meets to score out. However, keeping my dd and the other girls at 5 helped them do much better at L5 States. I don't think in the long run that it was the best thing for my dd, but the gym is also fielding gymnastics teams so it isn't just about my dd. Hopefully, it will all be water under the bridge anyway this year as dd is going to Level 7 with her Level 5 teammates from last year.
 

jasmine196

Coach
Aug 29, 2007
101
At the gyms I've coached at, it didn't matter how many girls we had at each level. There were a number of times that we only had 1 girl in a certain level (usually level 6) in a meet. We just sent 1 coach to that session. I understand how it may not be feasible cost wise for some gyms. But I was at a very small gym and our fees were pretty low. The HC just didn't think it was fair, just because we only had 1 level 6 that she shouldn't get to compete the level she was ready for.
 

Gymdad2

Proud Parent
Jul 11, 2008
438
Ohio
Are there gyms out there that pay coaches' session fees, travel, food, hotel, etc.? Our boosters have always paid these expenses so there would never have been a question from the owner about this. DD did a whole season of L9 by herself a few years ago. There was never any thought of holding her back in 8 that I know of.
 

Ingwe

Proud Parent
Apr 14, 2009
760
Region 8
We don't have a booster club so all meet fees, coaches fees (Including food, hotels, travel) are paid by parents. Last year my dd made regionals, which were in Mississippi, and we had had to pay for the entire 4 days the coaches were there. I think it was about $500 per parent for that one event.
 

Jennemmy

Proud Parent
Mar 30, 2009
137
Region 6
We have plenty of girls at each level so that isn't the problem. In fact, too many girls may be the problem. We have close to 40 girls at 4, 20 at 5 and maybe another 20 at 6. Our optionals are pretty good and we have an elite in the mix. I think the head coach is trying to oversee too much and be everywhere at once. I think she has it in her head that there are a few stars in the mix which have been fast tracked. The problem is the girls who are placing aren't in that "star" group. My dd only had a 33.950 at states which didn't put her in top 10 for her age group. She only placed in one event. State scores maxed at 36.50 so not awful either. We are a comp state (no easy 9's ever). So the sandbagging may be right on the money. I think the gym is hoping to win states at each level. And moving some of the girls up that have their skills means a fast learning curve for the younger ones coming from behind. The funny thing is that the coach has always told me that my dd will be a standout in optionals bc she is so powerful. And you can really see that in her L6 workouts. Her tucks are over 5ft. Her bwo on beam is cleaner than her cartwheel. Her flyaway is super strong and she sticks it. So dd is actually a better 6 than she is a 5 bc she gets to start using those power skills. The bigger question is why the girls that came in 1 aa for their age groups are staying back too. There is a big group that proved they have the skills to move up over the summer and now this next meet has them revisiting routines they haven't worked on in months. And talking to the coach will result in your daughter spending 2 hours on tumbletrack at the next workout instead of being coached. And moving to another gym isn't an option so I guess the parents/girls have learned to just mutter under our breath. I'm not complaining as much as bewildered by the reasoning behind it. I think quite a few of you gave me a good glimpse at why! Thanks!
 

Jennemmy

Proud Parent
Mar 30, 2009
137
Region 6
This is true for our gym. We pay for every meet, coaches fees, travel/hotel and we pay a yearly gym fee too that is very substantial. The comp don't travel so the fees go to optional expenses.
 

flipper's fan

Proud Parent
Aug 3, 2010
463
Mid Atlantic
Recommendation to adopt the following statement and add to the 2010​
11 Rules and Policies and the
2013
Compulsory Book.

Motion: B. Harris
Second: J. Geddert
PASSED​
In the spirit of good sportsmanship, fairness to all athletes and competitive balance, the mobility system
within the National JO Program should be followed in the manner that it was intended.​
-
Before moving up a level, every athlete should show proficiency at their current level.

-
Once a high level of proficiency is achieved at the athlete’s current level, she should strive to move up
to the next level as long as it is done safely.

-
For athletes to repeat a level with the intent to gain an advantage over other competitors or teams IS

NOT in the spirit of the JO Program or youth sports in general.

This is from the minutes of the
WOMEN’S JUNIOR OLYMPIC COMMITTEE MEETING
Dallas, TX​
May 10
11, 2010

I for one was happy to see it in print and policy because I know gyms that purposely hold kids back in order to have state champions and state team championships.
 

jdf

Apr 6, 2010
94
And talking to the coach will result in your daughter spending 2 hours on tumbletrack at the next workout instead of being coached. And moving to another gym isn't an option so I guess the parents/girls have learned to just mutter under our breath. !

That is abuse, plain and simple. I would have a hard time keeping my daughter in that gym. Are there no other gyms around, or does this one have the best coaching (aside from the above)?
 
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