Coaches Kip vs. Pullover

[coachnmom]

I am debating how much time to spend teaching kips when they receive the same start value with a pullover. At this level, it will be difficult to find kids that can do a perfect kip with nice straight arms, extended glide and straight legs. On the other hand, do you think that the judges will score more favorably on the routines that begin with a kip?

 

[Jabba]

TRAIN THE KIP. TRAIN THE KIP. TRAIN THE KIP.

Was so happy to see this back as an option for this level. Think long term v. short term here. It takes most kids a very long time to get a strong, straight arm kip that can connect to a cast for the next levels.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

You should be spending all your time already working just the kip.... Then let them compete whatever they have. We don't even take kids on team if they can't do a simple pull over, so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[coachmolly]

Keep working kips! Lots of them! It will give the kids a heads up for the next level and less of a kip crunch, and if you compete a few ugly kips in level 4 (new 3) to get everything ironed out by level 5 (new 6) when it's actually needed, so be it. Though training them doesn't mean competing and even if a kid has a kip that needs some work doesn't mean they can't just compete a pullover.
Years ago when I competed level 4 you could do a kip or pullover, and I don't recall being majorly penalized for doing an okay kip in place of a great pullover, but that was like 15 years ago so heck if I remember. But having the option to compete it if you had your kip was good incentive to work kips early on.

 

[iwannacoach]

It's always nice to have a reason to watch that "When will my Susie start kipping video"...... please, by all mean possible, work that kip as if their whole gymnastics career depended on it. They can always practice routines with pullovers right before each meet if they need them.

 

[Seeker]

It's always nice to have a reason to watch that "When will my Susie start kipping video"...... .

Oh how I LOVE that video...totally makes me laugh even though I've seen it many times. Susie will never, ever kip!!

 

[JBS]

Work kips......

 

[gymdog]

If they get a good enough kip, they will probably have the same deductions as glide back, pullover. Most kids get a deduction for bending their arms on the glide back to stand.

 

[GymCoachR2]

Work as many kips as possible in the best way possible. The goal is to have a nice solid kip, but if they can't do that (my personal opinion) is that you should have a good enough conditioning program in place that all of your children can do a nice two foot pull-over without trouble.

Your goal should be to think long term. Teach your kids what they need to know down the line correctly and from the beginning. They'll thank you for it. And don't skip out on conditioning (this will help with the pullovers).

 

[BlairBob]

If you ever wish to kick these kids out of L4 into L5, they need to be working the kip. As much as you can spot.

If they can't pullover, well it depends if their pullup strength is weak or their core strength is weak. If it's the latter, they won't really be working on kips much besides solo drills and if you want to spot and can.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

If you ever wish to kick these kids out of L4 into L5, they need to be working the kip. As much as you can spot.

If they can't pullover, well it depends if their pullup strength is weak or their core strength is weak. If it's the latter, they won't really be working on kips much besides solo drills and if you want to spot and can.

==
Bob , I am actually flying up to Sacramento in a few hours for westerns. (saw you are from there). What gym are you at and do you have any at westerns this year?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I am debating how much time to spend teaching kips when they receive the same start value with a pullover. At this level, it will be difficult to find kids that can do a perfect kip with nice straight arms, extended glide and straight legs. On the other hand, do you think that the judges will score more favorably on the routines that begin with a kip?

this is currently what is wrong with gymnastics today and how younger coaches look at what they have to do as coaches.

you should not be coaching to the "code", "start value" and all that other white noise.

the kids must be coached developmentally. pull overs and kips are part of a sequential progression that developmentally prepare the kids to do bars. so, both must be done.

furthermore, who cares what the judges think?

 

[coachnmom]

Thank you all for your replies. I began working kip more in depth with kip drills last night such as 3 glides in a row working on extending the glide, lying kip drills with a floor bar, casting to horizontal, stemme rises, and me spotting kip up kip downs. My arms are sore, but I think this will be a great workout. My question now is this: I will have a group of larger kids moving to my team next month and doing the kip up kip down drills with them will kill my back, what are some good kip drills that you do with heavier kids? I have looked at all of the threads regarding kips and watched the You Tube videos, but when it comes down to it these things are great for lead ups, but does anyone have tried and true methods for larger kids? Also, it seems like my girls all have great glides that are extended, hollow with toes up at the end when they are just doing a glide, but when I begin spotting kips they all forget to extend the glide and remain partially piked, any ideas? I tell them and shape them manually holding them in a fully extended position, but it doesn't seem to work.

BTW, I have several very competitive parents who completely fit the "When will my Susie start kipping" type.

 

[bogwoppit]

BTW, I have several very competitive parents who completely fit the "When will my Susie start kipping" type.

Send them the link to the video and maybe they will understand about the process better!!

 

[coachmolly]

I work with high school kids and hand spotting too many kips, especially the girls who aren't even close to kipping, can be tough and drop kips can be almost impossible. For those girls, I work lots of glides, strength stuff, and try to help them get the feel of it as much as possible on the ones I do spot. V-ups, leg lifts, L-holds on bars, and holding toes to the bar are all helpful in building muscles needed for kips. If you have multiple bars, you could encourage them to just work them on their own (once they understand proper shapes and how a kip works). We don't have the luxury of multiple sets of bars, but every few turns I'll encourage them to try on their own and give verbal corrections. It gives me a break from spotting for a bit to shake out my arms and also lets me see how much they "get it" on their own without my help.

 

[BlairBob]

coachp, right now I'm just a lowly mostly compulsory coach who hasn't coached really since last summer. I left Sac just after March back to the East Colorado hinterlands.

This might change this or after this summer. I've kind of enjoyed the time away, spent some time working for Samsung and focused on OlympicLifting and being stress free from not having to coach (OTOH, I miss the coaching [not the stress]). On occasion, I've lent some of my gymnastics experience to CrossFit/ish gyms but mainly have been just doing Snatches, Cleans, Jerks and Squats.

and eating.

 

[iwannacoach]

coachp, right now I'm just a lowly mostly compulsory coach who hasn't coached really since last summer. I left Sac just after March back to the East Colorado hinterlands.

This might change this or after this summer. I've kind of enjoyed the time away, spent some time working for Samsung and focused on OlympicLifting and being stress free from not having to coach (OTOH, I miss the coaching [not the stress]). On occasion, I've lent some of my gymnastics experience to CrossFit/ish gyms but mainly have been just doing Snatches, Cleans, Jerks and Squats.

and eating.

You sparked an 'oly' memory of the day I met a National champ. Loved that sport for it's simple complexities...... if you know what I mean.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Thank you all for your replies. I began working kip more in depth with kip drills last night such as 3 glides in a row working on extending the glide, lying kip drills with a floor bar, casting to horizontal, stemme rises, and me spotting kip up kip downs. My arms are sore, but I think this will be a great workout. My question now is this: I will have a group of larger kids moving to my team next month and doing the kip up kip down drills with them will kill my back, what are some good kip drills that you do with heavier kids? I have looked at all of the threads regarding kips and watched the You Tube videos, but when it comes down to it these things are great for lead ups, but does anyone have tried and true methods for larger kids? Also, it seems like my girls all have great glides that are extended, hollow with toes up at the end when they are just doing a glide, but when I begin spotting kips they all forget to extend the glide and remain partially piked, any ideas? I tell them and shape them manually holding them in a fully extended position, but it doesn't seem to work.

BTW, I have several very competitive parents who completely fit the "When will my Susie start kipping" type.

==
You need to spot kips, if you are super sore then they are probably either weak or being lazy, I suggest starting each bar workout with 20 minutes of strength for the next 2 months. Yes you will miss some bar time but strength gained is more important. and yes they will be a little harder to spot because they are tired but the reward will be greater. I can give you some bar strength that actually works if you are looking for something different.
additional kip strength

Candle stick holds
Lever holds
Abb rollers
Jump ups on wall bars,

Drills for kips without spotting,
1Butt bombs (block in front of bar with soft spring board on it (preschool spring board), kids get in support and drop to butt on board and bounce back to support with straight arms.
2Kips on straps, put a block behind them for the glide and let them kip away with locked arms. I don't recommend doing a bunch of this as the timing is different but every few weeks I let the kids who can't kip try. I have gotten many kids who are lagging behind to kip using strap bar, it lets them know that they can do it and teaches them the action, but again the timing is a little different.

 

[BlairBob]

Even our L4's generally started their bar warmups with drop/short kips. 2 or 3 sets of 3-5 reps. Depends on the size of the kids, how many and if we had one or two coaches on bars.

Candle and L holds were bread and butter movements to warm up bars with besides hollow front support holds and of course, pullover and cast a bunch.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

believe it or not, the most important component to the kip is the glide with subsequent tap and then bringing the ankles/feet to the bar before the shoulders change direction and go backwards again.