Parents L10 gymnast (The Reality Of College Gymnastics)

[LJL07]

Shades of difference here, I think there is intent, and then what is actual in practice. I could argue that every girl that has entered elite started in the DP. They may not have gotten to L10, but I am sure they started at some point in the DP. So how am I wrong? But in practice no one stays in DP to hop in to do elite. Jade Carey kinda sorta did this? But definitely the exception.

I agree with you the problem is L10 is an unlimited level. So you get the situation that many here are complaining/bemoaning etc about. I also agree with the 50% of L10's would be better served by doing L9. So many 10's don't even have 10 SV routines but are convinced they have to do L10. So maybe part of the solution is creating more stringent criteria to be a L10? But then we will hear the complaints about that.

At the end of the day, as some have mentioned, you cant get away from competition, one can slice it up all they want but someone is still going to be left out.

I agree that there is no perfect solution, but I still think they could do better with all of this. As it stands now, it is kind of a big mess. In some regions a 34 qualifies you to regionals, but in other regions, girls scoring 36s can't qualify if they aren't in the top %age? That is nutty. As I pointed out at the beginning of this thread, you are not going to have an MLS soccer team competing in a tournament with ECNL teams. So why should a kid who is competing in HOPES meets (for example) be competing in DP meets?

 

[maz-y]

First of all, as JBS has pointed out, I think you need to clearly define elites here, because it can get blurry, there are a lot of girls who train elite but never qualify elite, there are also a similar number who may qualify but still never compete and a number that compete but are never on the national team, so which group are you going to single out?

Defining which athletes are elites would not be unduly burdensome. My definition of elite is any athlete who has achieved both the compulsory & optional qualifying scores. A post-elite level could be created to accommodate those former elite athletes who decide to “drop back.”

 

[gym_dad32608]

So game out some of the potential solutions. So increase the qualifying score for every region so that its the same? Or lower it? How would that effect regions that have a density of high-quality athletes? Low-quality athletes? How about all the girls that have done Hopes, a special division for them? And the girls that trained elite but perhaps just missed qualifying scores, I imagine they are going to dominate most of the L10 competitions. I honestly sympathize and understand and feel the pain of some of the posters. It just seems like a giant wack-a-mole problem that really doesn't have a solution that wouldn't create other problems. But I am open to hear suggestions to optimize the current situation.

 

[LJL07]

So game out some of the potential solutions. So increase the qualifying score for every region so that its the same? Or lower it? How would that effect regions that have a density of high-quality athletes? Low-quality athletes? How about all the girls that have done Hopes, a special division for them? And the girls that trained elite but perhaps just missed qualifying scores, I imagine they are going to dominate most of the L10 competitions. I honestly sympathize and understand and feel the pain of some of the posters. It just seems like a giant wack-a-mole problem that really doesn't have a solution that wouldn't create other problems. But I am open to hear suggestions to optimize the current situation.

The person above just made reasonable suggestions. There is no PERFECT solution. There is always going to be someone or some group complaining. No doubt about it. But the current system could definitely be improved upon! And yes, I think there should be the same qualifying score across the board--the DP scoring is supposed to be consistent across regions, so why not make everyone earn the same score, whether it is a 35 or 36? If you are "in the elite system" do the HOPES meets. If you drop out of the "elite system" then compete in the DP program. There are plenty of changes that could be made to make this better.

 

[gym_dad32608]

The person above just made reasonable suggestions.

I'm sorry, I didn't really see any clear suggestion. I think they implied going with some set score in regions? So if you raise the qualifying score then you are going to be blocking out a large group of individuals in other regions who may be subject to more stringent judging. If you lower the score then regions are going to have an unbalanced number of competitors competing. Seems worse to me because right now you have a better chance of getting a representative sample of the competition in that region. Some regions are just going to more/less competitive than others. Having the regions set their qualifying score helps ensure that so that each region gets an equal number of competitors.

If you are "in the elite system" do the HOPES meets. If you drop out of the "elite system" then compete in the DP program. There are plenty of changes that could be made to make this better.

Elites are not allowed to just hop back and forth between elite and DP, they have compete in one or the other for the season. So I am not sure that really solves anything, because what you describe is what is exactly happening now?

 

[LJL07]

I'm sorry, I didn't really see any clear suggestion. I think they implied going with some set score in regions? So if you raise the qualifying score then you are going to be blocking out a large group of individuals in other regions who may be subject to more stringent judging. If you lower the score then regions are going to have an unbalanced number of competitors competing. Seems worse to me because right now you have a better chance of getting a representative sample of the competition in that region. Some regions are just going to more/less competitive than others. Having the regions set their qualifying score helps ensure that so that each region gets an equal number of competitors.


Elites are not allowed to just hop back and forth between elite and DP, they have compete in one or the other for the season. So I am not sure that really solves anything, because what you describe is what is exactly happening now?

I'm sorry, I didn't really see any clear suggestion. I think they implied going with some set score in regions? So if you raise the qualifying score then you are going to be blocking out a large group of individuals in other regions who may be subject to more stringent judging. If you lower the score then regions are going to have an unbalanced number of competitors competing. Seems worse to me because right now you have a better chance of getting a representative sample of the competition in that region. Some regions are just going to more/less competitive than others. Having the regions set their qualifying score helps ensure that so that each region gets an equal number of competitors.


Elites are not allowed to just hop back and forth between elite and DP, they have compete in one or the other for the season. So I am not sure that really solves anything, because what you describe is what is exactly happening now?

It is clear that you think things are great just as they are. I disagree, and I did give some "clear suggestions." If a child is training for HOPES and has met the requirement for the "elite compulsory" score for example, but is working toward earning the optional qualifying score, then stick to competing in the HOPES program. If they aren't allowed to "hop back and forth," then why are they competing in both elite qualifying meets and DP meets? It is my understanding that they can compete in the DP program. I do not think that should happen. If they are training to qualify for HOPES and ultimately the elite track, then they should train and work towards those meets and not compete in meets in the DP program.

So now we are getting into "areas with more stringent judging?" Ha! I would agree that is also a problem, but unless we switch to some kind of computerized scoring mechanism, human error is always going to be an issue. Scores are notoriously higher in one of our neighboring states, even though judges in theory are supposed to be consistent and reliable in scoring and use the same rules, right? I think USAG could come up with a reasonable qualifying score for level 9/10 regionals. 36 is too high, but a 34 or 35 is pretty reasonable across all regions.

 

[gym_dad32608]

It is clear that you think things are great just as they are.

I didn't say that. I always think things can be improved, its my engineering background. I am just more conservative/skeptical in changes. I have found that changes made based upon emotion or reactionary events tend to be poor choices. My request was to game out the suggestions that are put forward. This helps bring some reality to the evaluation of ideas and often can identify problems with potential solutions that may disqualify them. So for example, your clear suggestion of lowering qualifying scores. Are you ok then with different regions having more athletes represented than others? The added costs and venue constraints of more competitors, is that a potential problem?
Again, just one "problem" with doing something like that. Is the benefit from that change greater than these new "costs". Its a discussion board, I am just discussing.

If a child is training for HOPES and has met the requirement for the "elite compulsory" score for example, but is working toward earning the optional qualifying score, then stick to competing in the HOPES program. If they aren't allowed to "hop back and forth," then why are they competing in both elite qualifying meets and DP meets? It is my understanding that they can compete in the DP program. I do not think that should happen. If they are training to qualify for HOPES and ultimately the elite track, then they should train and work towards those meets and not compete in meets in the DP program.

This is a definite suggestion. What you are describing though is a transitory situation. These are girls that have not qualified elite and may never qualify. These Hopes and elite qualifying meets are during the DP season, so ya, a lot of these girls go through the DP season and attend the one or two qualifying meets to get their scores. If they make the scores then they go on to elite, if not then stay DP. If I understand you correctly, you are basically saying if a girl even just wants to try to get an elite qualifying score then they should not be allowed to compete that season in the JO program. That seems harsh, these girls would have to forgo a season of competition and hope they make their qualifying score. I do think they should do something to increase the number of Hopes/elite competitions, because there are only a few and maybe that might keep more elites in the elite world. I do think some if not all of the elites that drop back are ones that qualified but lets say don't make the national team and the want to compete but only have like 2 competitions a year.

And just another point of reality here, this whole, lets change things because of elites dropping back. Is it really a problem? At least statistically it would not seem to be one. There are only about 40? elite qualified gymnasts and about 2k Level 10's. And of those 40 or so, what, maybe 10 might drop back at any given year. We are talking about a very small percentage of competitors. So we are willing to make a change that affects all the other L10s because of maybe 10 girls?

 

[LJL07]

I didn't say that. I always think things can be improved, its my engineering background. I am just more conservative/skeptical in changes. I have found that changes made based upon emotion or reactionary events tend to be poor choices. My request was to game out the suggestions that are put forward. This helps bring some reality to the evaluation of ideas and often can identify problems with potential solutions that may disqualify them. So for example, your clear suggestion of lowering qualifying scores. Are you ok then with different regions having more athletes represented than others? The added costs and venue constraints of more competitors, is that a potential problem?
Again, just one "problem" with doing something like that. Is the benefit from that change greater than these new "costs". Its a discussion board, I am just discussing.


This is a definite suggestion. What you are describing though is a transitory situation. These are girls that have not qualified elite and may never qualify. These Hopes and elite qualifying meets are during the DP season, so ya, a lot of these girls go through the DP season and attend the one or two qualifying meets to get their scores. If they make the scores then they go on to elite, if not then stay DP. If I understand you correctly, you are basically saying if a girl even just wants to try to get an elite qualifying score then they should not be allowed to compete that season in the JO program. That seems harsh, these girls would have to forgo a season of competition and hope they make their qualifying score. I do think they should do something to increase the number of Hopes/elite competitions, because there are only a few and maybe that might keep more elites in the elite world. I do think some if not all of the elites that drop back are ones that qualified but lets say don't make the national team and the want to compete but only have like 2 competitions a year.

And just another point of reality here, this whole, lets change things because of elites dropping back. Is it really a problem? At least statistically it would not seem to be one. There are only about 40? elite qualified gymnasts and about 2k Level 10's. And of those 40 or so, what, maybe 10 might drop back at any given year. We are talking about a very small percentage of competitors. So we are willing to make a change that affects all the other L10s because of maybe 10 girls?

These are all good questions. I am definitely not an engineer.

1) I would be ok with some regions having more competitors than other regions if there was a standard qualifying score. I realize some regions would be way overrepresented. You raise a good question about the cost. Would the added revenue from potentially having more gymnasts be enough to cover the higher number of competitors? I don't know since I am not entirely sure what the meet fee covers. I feel like we paid a lot (for the meet) just to go to level 8, but maybe some of this covered our coaches' expenses.

2) Yes. That is what I am saying. If a girl is trying to qualify for Hopes, they should do Hopes meets and not do the DP meets. I think USAG could separate out girls who are training for HOPES. I agree that it would be nice to increase the number of HOPES competitions. I do not think it is harsh to exclude them from DP meets as other sports have different leagues, and kids compete within the leagues to which they belong. They chose to train elite. I don't see why they should get to do both at the same time.

3) You are probably generally right about the numbers with regard to the elite gymnasts who drop down. I think it is likely more than 10 girls though. To me, the larger issue is the very limited number of college gymnastics programs. I like what JPS was saying about half of the level 10s more realistically being level 9s. Maybe change the criteria for level 10? And then I think more D2/D3 programs are needed for the DP gymnasts. I can't remember the person who quoted the number of D3 soccer programs, but 15 D3 and a tiny handful of D2 programs is really just kind of sad.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Selecting students into the very best free programs according to their academic performance level is just selection of the best suited. And I ashure you that education f.e. in Bavaria is pretty much the same everywhere. It does not matter much if you are smarte in the smallest town near the eastern border or in Munich. Schools will always have very well trained teachers, same class size, same lessons, more or less the same tests everywhere, selecting due to academic performance starting age 10. No need to pay.

but not everyone is eligible to go to college

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Families make such extreme sacrifices for their kids gymnastics (and other sports) with the hopes of getting a scholarship, that the children start to feel guilty and like they HAVE to get that scholarship. So much money is burned in the process of getting to be a competitive level 10 or elite that would just outright pay for college.

When you don’t have the looming “threat” of needing to get a scholarship, you have people who do the sport because they love it, but feel more free to leave because there isn’t an end objective attached to it. They know they’re going to college for free, so they don’t need to sacrifice middle school and high school, home schooling, driving many hours.

My kid isn’t going to college for free. She will get the education we can afford to give her.

And she didn’t do a sport for college. Anything we did as her parents we did willingly.

No one should be doing any sport to get a college ride. The money is better put in a 529.

 

[Aussie_coach]

but not everyone is eligible to go to college

In the US is everyone eligible to go to College? If a student really struggles academically, would there be an option for them?

It’s interesting that College is much more expensive in the US, yet a much larger percentage of the population go.

Here it’s a lot cheaper and there is no expectation to go. Not everyone wants to go, not everyone needs to go, not everyone can cope with it.

 

[JBS]

If a student really struggles academically, would there be an option for them?

They would need to pass high school or get a GED.

 

[josie55]

IMHO the cutoff to qualify for nationals should be 36. Yes some regions would be underrepresented, but this sport should be about the athletes, not the regions. The girls in more competitive regions and age groups would still be at a disadvantage, but this current system where girls with 35s get to go, and others with high 37s and even 38s stay home, is not only unfair, but undermines the entire notion of nationals truly being “the best of the best”.

 

[Tmacs]

Wow. Interesting thread. A little depressing. I think at L2 and L3, both dd and I thought college... now I'm wiser. The earliest she can reach L10 at this gym is 9th grade but I'm not willing to make many sacrifices to increase her chances of competing in college. As strong as she is, we have lots of other interests as a family, lots of other kids with their own interests, and I would regret making huge sacrifices way more than I would regret her not advancing as far as she might. Sports are just crazy now. I have a hard time with the intensity but at the same time, I get sucked into it. The whole thread is making me wish she had picked a different sport. But she loves gym and I love watching.

 

[kecks]

but not everyone is eligible to go to college

If you manage to perform academically well enough everyone is eligible here. If you don't you probably are not able to successfully complete an university degree. There are many options for paid (! you get paid to get trained) vocational training in jobs that seem to be college level jobs in the US (think hair dresser, electrian, car mechanic, doctor's assistant...).

 

[gym_dad32608]

Just to add more context to the discussion, I was listening to a podcast that was interviewing the UF AD. He stated last year US universities (all divisions) spent $5.5 billion on olympic sports, which generate no revenue for athletic departments. I don't know where he got this number but he is obviously a credible source. He also pointed out how the US is the only country that has an Olympic system like this and all other countries the government spends to support olympic sports.

Some understanding why its difficult to get new gymnastics programs. It would be nice if USAG could provide some support to start new programs, but I'm not sure there is enough $. Its not so much the start-up costs, but the on-going costs of maintaining a program

 

[Aussie_coach]

Just to add more context to the discussion, I was listening to a podcast that was interviewing the UF AD. He stated last year US universities (all divisions) spent $5.5 billion on olympic sports, which generate no revenue for athletic departments. I don't know where he got this number but he is obviously a credible source. He also pointed out how the US is the only country that has an Olympic system like this and all other countries the government spends to support olympic sports.

Some understanding why its difficult to get new gymnastics programs. It would be nice if USAG could provide some support to start new programs, but I'm not sure there is enough $. Its not so much the start-up costs, but the on-going costs of maintaining a program

That is true, other countries do use government spending for Olympic sports, but that brings its own set of problems.

Which sports get the funding, and how much go up and down all the time. These programs are often run by government people with little understanding of the sport.

 

[Flounder]

Wow. Interesting thread. A little depressing. I think at L2 and L3, both dd and I thought college... now I'm wiser. The earliest she can reach L10 at this gym is 9th grade but I'm not willing to make many sacrifices to increase her chances of competing in college. As strong as she is, we have lots of other interests as a family, lots of other kids with their own interests, and I would regret making huge sacrifices way more than I would regret her not advancing as far as she might. Sports are just crazy now. I have a hard time with the intensity but at the same time, I get sucked into it. The whole thread is making me wish she had picked a different sport. But she loves gym and I love watching.

I get it. We had no idea. I understand now why our Diamond Xcel group is so huge and why so many girls switch over in HS. You miss out on a lot when you are practicing 20 hours a week. Sometimes I wonder if my DD will make the switch before HS is over. It's just sad that there are so few potential options to continue to D3 for gymnastics compared to other sports. That said, she loves the sport and it's still her favorite activity in the world.

 

[MuggleMom]

2) Yes. That is what I am saying. If a girl is trying to qualify for Hopes, they should do Hopes meets and not do the DP meets. I think USAG could separate out girls who are training for HOPES. I agree that it would be nice to increase the number of HOPES competitions. I do not think it is harsh to exclude them from DP meets as other sports have different leagues, and kids compete within the leagues to which they belong. They chose to train elite. I don't see why they should get to do both at the same time.

My understanding is there are not a lot of qualifiers and they are spread throughout the country so there would be so few meets these kids would be able to do I don't think it would be fair to them to say they can't compete DP as well. Also all that would do is have coaches train them for HOPES Elite without entering them in any meets till they were 100% sure they would get the score. I dont think it would change the hours, levels, skills these girls train at the gym it would just impact the stradegy of the coach on when they start entering them in the actual HOPEs Meets. It would also likely prevent some girls that want to try it for fun to even go for it if they have to choose between the two paths.

I just don't see how training/competing HOPES/Elite is any different than Gyms training up and competing down. I know plenty of gyms that have the girls training 2 levels above where they have them compete.

 

[NutterButter]

I just don't see how training/competing HOPES/Elite is any different than Gyms training up and competing down. I know plenty of gyms that have the girls training 2 levels above where they have them compete.

I agree and the entire elite training/HOPES is self-selecting. Not every kid can train at this level and be successful (I'm talking physically/talent) but to even be considered for HOPES means the kid is a standout. I follow a few kids in my state who have pursued elite training and while each has dropped elite training at different points in the process, all of them were standouts before they started elite training.