Parents L10 gymnast (The Reality Of College Gymnastics)

[LJL07]

Ok, so it's the MOST difficult sport, what is your point? Youre tilting at windmills here. You cant force universities to add programs, and this is a free society so even the most educated, most aware individuals are still going to pursue this sport or any sport for that matter to the nth degree. I understand, you are in an underserved area, but this is a capitalist market society, you can open your own gym, or move to a market that supports a more robust gymnastics scene. But its obvious that the market in your area only supports so much.
So one individual had a daughter quit training elite? We are going to extrapolate everything out of a N=1? Do you just want to have a b*tching session? I just don't understand where you are trying to take this?

Perhaps I am being too emotionally reactive, but in my opinion, you aren‘t being humanistic enough. I don’t suppose it matters anymore since I’ve been pretty vocal already and it’s easy enough to figure out where I live etc, but we are trying to get a brand new gym off the ground over here. We are doing just what you suggest we should do in our capitalist market society. It’s quickly going in the direction of the same old-same old over here, and we would like to know what we could do to make this better (a whole different thread).
I think there is much more than an N of 1. I thought one of the issues being discussed was how to retain elites in the elite program. There is a larger problem than an N of 1.

 

[LJL07]

And yes! It has kind of been cathartic to get all of this out. Since we clearly can’t build programs over here, it’s kind of nice to get 10 years of frustration off my chest. Sorry to everyone else though! Carry on with the discussion.

 

[gym_dad32608]

Perhaps I am being too emotionally reactive, but in my opinion, you aren‘t being humanistic enough. I don’t suppose it matters anymore since I’ve been pretty vocal already and it’s easy enough to figure out where I live etc, but we are trying to get a brand new gym off the ground over here. We are doing just what you suggest we should do in our capitalist market society. It’s quickly going in the direction of the same old-same old over here, and we would like to know what we could do to make this better (a whole different thread).

Yes, that is a more direct question and better served in a different post, probably in the coaching forum, since I would imagine the challenge is getting high quality coaches in your budding gym. Unfortunately I can only offer my antedoctal opinion based upon interacting at different gyms and training at two different gyms. It really has to start at the top and ownership. The owner/manager at the gym has to be committed to having a high quality competitive program. Otherwise you will never attract or retain a high-quality coach. After that, I don't know about actually getting said coach. But I genuinely feel for you. Like I told you before, we were in a slightly similar situation, we made the decision to do long commutes and homeschool. I know its an individual choice that not everyone agrees with but it works for our family.

I think there is much more than an N of 1. I thought one of the issues being discussed was how to retain elites in the elite program. There is a larger problem than an N of 1.

That is different, my genuine thought is you are not going to change the "always more" in elite, because we are talking about international competition. And just like in DP there are going to be girls that drop out because they don't want the pounding and wear and tear. I do think you can keep more in the elite system by making it more robust with competitions and reducing the focus on national team or bust. There are a good subset of girls that do enjoy pushing for more and the challenge of doing more a bigger skills (in a safe environment of course). But without a robust competition structure like in DP they will drop out.

 

[cmg]

WOW! I didn't read this discussion for a day, and it took me a while to catch up. I agree that all kids' sports have become professionalized. The time and money committed to kids sports in the USA is truly amazing especially compared to other countries. This does not equate to being better although I would say it creates the potential for top athletes rising to the top and representing out country well in international events of all sports.

That said, I do believe gymnastics has many issues to resolve in terms of finding quality coaches that can develop not only the average kid but the kids that make it to the top. As someone has said, there is no ceiling for elite, and then that does affect L10 since every year it seems skills get downgraded and there is a push to do harder and harder skills. At some point we need to stop that insanity before more kids get seriously hurt.

In terms of college sports, parents from the USA have an insatiable drive for their kid to be the "scholarship athlete" who get a full ride based on their athletic abilities. Yes, there are also many parents who stress academics, but I am guessing the status of the full ride athlete might be higher, sad to say.

As you can probably guess I have a daughter who wants to do college gymnastics. She is not an elite level gymnast, she has had a serious injury the last year, and is taking a gap year to somehow miraculously walk on somewhere. Her chances are slim and yes, I figured out early on that getting her to a walk on spot, never mind a scholarship would be very difficult. I did college sports as a walk on track and field athlete way back, and I have followed college sports and seen how these days just to get a walk on spot in any sport at D1 you need to hit very high levels of athleticism. This is a USA phenomenon and that is not going to change.

My daughter has spent lots of time in the gym even though our gym has lower hours, 17 hours per week once you hit optionals and that is at the very low end. She also plays around with an adult class for an extra 4-5 hours per week, but this is more social than training. It is hard to compete with the 25 hour+ gyms but there are not a lot of choices in our town and I am not driving over an hour away for a different gym. However, she also has stayed out of trouble, I know where she is Friday and Saturday night, I don't think she has had any alcohol yet, she has not tried drugs, and she has not gotten pregnant! The gym has totally kept her out of trouble in many other ways that young adult's can get themselves into and for that I am grateful. I am hopeful that she can find a college team to join, but I also know the reality. Only time will tell. In some respects gymnastics is like track and field since it is all about what skills you can compete (just like how fast you can run) and although judging can be flexible (unlike a stopwatch) a college coach can see what you can do and judge for themselves.

Not sure this solves any of the issues that have been brought up, but I guess my bottom line is I would like to see more Dll and Dlll gymnastics teams for both men and women so that more gymnasts can do the sport they love at the college level because I do feel like college sports is a good thing for most kids and teaches them a lot of different things besides academics. College sports develops leadership skills, helps you be more successful in your chosen career, and develops lifelong bonds and friendships. That is the main reason I would want my daughter to participate in college sports.

 

[JBS]

That is different, my genuine thought is you are not going to change the "always more" in elite, because we are talking about international competition. And just like in DP there are going to be girls that drop out because they don't want the pounding and wear and tear. I do think you can keep more in the elite system by making it more robust with competitions and reducing the focus on national team or bust. There are a good subset of girls that do enjoy pushing for more and the challenge of doing more a bigger skills (in a safe environment of course). But without a robust competition structure like in DP they will drop out.

"Always more" can really be fun... but as @FlippinLilysMom has stated... the camp structure is crazy... it's an instant "get more"... almost as if what the athlete (and coach) just accomplished is not any good.

On the first day of the first camp my daughter and I ever went to we got... "You know if you made Tops A Camp as a 10 year old... then you are already too old". It was like... ok... then why do you invite 10 year olds? Then they proceeded to invite us up into another camp... weird mixed signals.

My point is that the camps and national staff really create this "always more" to a crazy crazy level. Athletes could get to their personal level of Elite and compete there for several years happily if there was a fun system of meets with it. The camps are what push many top notch athletes back to L10... they are just discouraging once you hit the wall.

The "always more" and "never good enough" isn't the reality in elite. The rules encourage "always more"... but really the level is just determined by the skills of others that you are competing against. It is definitely possible to compete Elite at a level above L10 and below Simone.

Change the format of the Elite system. Up the competitions to 25+ per year... invite other countries in to this league... make the goal a medal at the end of the competition instead of "making the National Team". Maybe other countries would start to offer some competitions of similar style that we could enter. Now you could have an "experience" really coupled with a competition. Take an athlete to an "international" competition without having to "make the National Team". This type of "experience" would beat traveling to the middle of the forest in Texas and then going from WA to NC to hit meets.

I guess what it comes down to is that every Elite meet in the US does not need to be a "National Qualifier"... there could be more meets using the same rules that are not "National Qualifiers". Qualify at one of the 7 if you want... compete against others training Elite at other comps.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

A number of them. Two girls in my daughter’s graduating class will be playing soccer. Several boys will be playing baseball. A couple of volleyball scholarships. One of my daughter’s good friends has a pole vaulting scholarship. I know quite a few pole vaulters actually. Acro and tumbling. Tennis. Cross country. Track. A bunch!

And you know how many hours they have spent getting to that point? The hours at batting cages, kicking soccer balls into their goals in their yards. How much conditioning work they do. How many travel teams they are on.

You actually believe they just practice a bit starting in HS and get their rides? At best that’s incredibly naive

 

[JBS]

I will say that we got very lucky. We live just minutes from our gym and they didn't initially train elite, just started when they saw the upcoming talent. Our owners/coaches are amazing.

Incredibly lucky!! We can’t figure out the issue. I guess coaches do not want to invest the time or energy. We have interested and engaged parents. Certainly young kids at 10/11 years old who are competing level 8 and scoring well (several of our kids) have the potential to keep going, but everything just fizzles out on level 9. It is truly not the kids. I guess this is a whole other thread but I wish we had some guidance to build a program just to get these girls to 10, let alone elite.

Split... here you go...

WAG - Creating a Level 10+ Focused Team Program (Finances / Coaching / Athlete Selection / Facility / Etc)

This is a split from another conversation to help people (parents primarily... I guess) understand the difficulties of running a high level (Level 10+ / Hopes / Elite) gymnastics team. This team would be one that can consistently put athletes at Level 10 Nationals and understand the Hopes /...

chalkbucket.com

I'll definitely jump in on this one.

 

[gym_dad32608]

"Always more" can really be fun... but as @FlippinLilysMom has stated... the camp structure is crazy... it's an instant "get more"... almost as if what the athlete (and coach) just accomplished is not any good.

On the first day of the first camp my daughter and I ever went to we got... "You know if you made Tops A Camp as a 10 year old... then you are already too old". It was like... ok... then why do you invite 10 year olds? Then they proceeded to invite us up into another camp... weird mixed signals.

My point is that the camps and national staff really create this "always more" to a crazy crazy level. Athletes could get to their personal level of Elite and compete there for several years happily if there was a fun system of meets with it. The camps are what push many top notch athletes back to L10... they are just discouraging once you hit the wall.

The "always more" and "never good enough" isn't the reality in elite. The rules encourage "always more"... but really the level is just determined by the skills of others that you are competing against. It is definitely possible to compete Elite at a level above L10 and below Simone.

Change the format of the Elite system. Up the competitions to 25+ per year... invite other countries in to this league... make the goal a medal at the end of the competition instead of "making the National Team". Maybe other countries would start to offer some competitions of similar style that we could enter. Now you could have an "experience" really coupled with a competition. Take an athlete to an "international" competition without having to "make the National Team". This type of "experience" would beat traveling to the middle of the forest in Texas and then going from WA to NC to hit meets.

I guess what it comes down to is that every Elite meet in the US does not need to be a "National Qualifier"... there could be more meets using the same rules that are not "National Qualifiers". Qualify at one of the 7 if you want... compete against others training Elite at other comps.

I am totally for this. I think it's a great idea for the elite system. I also think it is more feasible from a long-term financial standpoint for USAG than say having USAG attempt to help create more college programs.

 

[gymgal]

Where are your stats? I don’t think this is accurate. Maybe 10 years ago, but not now.

Look through the college bios and through state results of various levels. Most college gymnasts compete L10 for 3-5 years. That places them at L7 around 5th grade and beyond. Level 7 is usually when the hours go to 20hours. Yes, there are some who have repeated levels but they are less likely to spend as many years in L10 and there are others who went the elite route so were training 20 hours as 8yr olds but that's not the norm.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

Level 7 is usually when the hours go to 20hours.

While I do agree with you for the most part, I think you'd be surprised how many hours even compulsory kids are doing at many gyms. It's mind boggling. I'm not sure that this is really true anymore about level 7 or 5th grade being when hours typically go to 20 hours. Even gymnasts with relatively lower hours seem to be loading on the private lessons to get more hours. Again not all programs/gymnasts, but a lot.

 

[LJL07]

Look through the college bios and through state results of various levels. Most college gymnasts compete L10 for 3-5 years. That places them at L7 around 5th grade and beyond. Level 7 is usually when the hours go to 20hours. Yes, there are some who have repeated levels but they are less likely to spend as many years in L10 and there are others who went the elite route so were training 20 hours as 8yr olds but that's not the norm.

I have looked at all of that. Both of my girls were level 7 by age 9 and 4th grade. One daughter was even in a crazy HOPES track homeschool for two years that did not pan out at all because we have no TOPS or HOPES over here. They were very good level 7s too and caught on to bars very quickly. I know that might not sound very impressive, but the potential really is or was there. There is just no excuse for what is going on over here beyond unstable gyms.

 

[LJL07]

And you know how many hours they have spent getting to that point? The hours at batting cages, kicking soccer balls into their goals in their yards. How much conditioning work they do. How many travel teams they are on.

You actually believe they just practice a bit starting in HS and get their rides? At best that’s incredibly naive

Are you kidding me? You like to argue. I can assure you I am not naive. My oldest daughter did club soccer for years. I am friends with these parents. I KNOW that they put a lot of time into their sports. Heck, one of them is a former gymnast! They did not put as much time into those sports as my girls put into gymnastics. I am not saying they aren't dedicated and putting in lots of time. But they aren't putting as much time. I know this for a fact. You have made it clear that your daughter does a low number of hours for level 8 (or maybe 9 now?). Until this year due to logistical problems with gym space, my girls have put in 20+ hours per week year round.

 

[LJL07]

While I do agree with you for the most part, I think you'd be surprised how many hours even compulsory kids are doing at many gyms. It's mind boggling. I'm not sure that this is really true anymore about level 7 or 5th grade being when hours typically go to 20 hours. Even gymnasts with relatively lower hours seem to be loading on the private lessons to get more hours. Again not all programs/gymnasts, but a lot.

Absolutely. It is so backwards here. The lower level kids are the ones homeschooling and putting in a zillion hours and checking out of school. It is actually not the higher optional levels. Even Xcel kids are homeschooling.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I think another thing over looked is connections and relationships, when it comes to moving onto college.

There are ways to increase your visibility to coaches besides Nationals. And it’s not just talent.

College camps. Get to the camps of colleges on the athletes radar.

Have a Instagram/you tube etc… and keep it private but available to coaches and schools.

Network. There are gyms out there they may not have a huge superstar presence at Nationals, but they have relationships with college coaches. The adage it’s not what you know but who you know. If college gym has been on my daughters radar, college connections would of been one of the first things I looked for in a gym.

Success/Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

My kid plays lacrosse with a girl whose dream come true would be UConns womens basketball. She plays football on our boys varsity team (and colleges have called her), lacrosse and her first love basketball. Works out like a beast And as if it’s her job. And trains more hours then many gymnasts. We are a small school but reasonably competitive sports wise. Is she likely to get noticed by UConn. Not likely. Except her mom drives a bus and happened to have the UConn coach and some players on a trip to an event at West Point And talked up her daughter. Coach now following her on Instagram. Kid has had a tour of UConn, with the players, locker room, game etc….
Will she get an offer, who knows. But she is a heck of a lot closer because her Mom drove a bus on a Saturday.

My kid thinks she might like to play Lacrosse In college. Div 3 because she really doesn’t want sports to be her job. But what is non negotiable is she wants to do club gymmastics. We are narrowing her search to colleges in the area she wants to be, with the potential majors she is interested in, that have both womens lacrosse and club gymnastics. We will then be getting her to lacrosse camps at those schools or camps where coaches go. Who knows.
Worst case she is doing club gymnastics and getting an education.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Are you kidding me? You like to argue.

Only when people insist gymnastics can only be done at high hours starting early.

One of my kids good friend left our 12 hour gym a level 9 because she wanted more. She was in 8th grade. So got to level 9 on 12 hours a week. She competed at Nationals this year. Coaches are checking her out.

I know another low hour Xcel kid. Got to level 9. Ended up back in Xcel, she wanted flexibility for other things.

You can absolutely get pretty far without high hours.

There are many ways to “do gym”. Especially if it’s about loving gym.

 

[LJL07]

Only when people insist gymnastics can only be done at high hours starting early.

One of my kids good friend left our 12 hour gym a level 9 because she wanted more. She was in 8th grade. So got to level 9 on 12 hours a week. She competed at Nationals this year. Coaches are checking her out.

I know another low hour Xcel kid. Got to level 9. Ended up back in Xcel, she wanted flexibility for other things.

You can absolutely get pretty far without high hours.

There are many ways to “do gym”. Especially if it’s about loving gym.

I just really have to take what you say with a grain of salt. I’m sorry. And some of what you posted above is misleading about recruitment and college camps. It doesn’t quite work that way.

I have two in the sport and another child who did a different club sport, so I found your suggestion that I “am at best naive” insulting, and well, pretty naive on your part.

Do you need 30 hours to be good? No. There is a point of diminishing returns. You may not need high hours for level 8 or to meet your daughter’s goals. And that’s fine. But you need close to 20 for solid and safe level 10. And I never said the low levels need super high hours. I don’t think it’s necessary. And I don’t really see where anyone “insisted” upon that. But many gyms do promote that.

 

[LJL07]

I would actually really like to know what sort of level 9 was being done on 12 hours a week. I’m not being snarky. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

 

[Aussie_coach]

We have the opposite problem to the over professionalisation on youth sports. It’s very hard to get kids to commit a lot of hours, it used to be easier. But now there is the idea that to be well balanced kids have to do EVERYTHING.

On top of gymnastics they play 3 team sports, play 2 instruments, learn tennis, swimming, dance, drama. Join the scouts, the local community musical, the choir. And then on top of it tutoring.

I think doing a million things means they lose the value of the activities altogether. They have no chance to truly gain the benefits of committing themselves to excellence with anything.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I would actually really like to know what sort of level 9 was being done on 12 hours a week. I’m not being snarky. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

And if you‘ve never heard of it, it can’t be so.

Well its being done. Scoring mid 8s as first years. They get it’s going to take longer to up their skill difficulty. They know they aren’t going to Nationals. Probably not regionals. But they are doing it. And they do things like Varsity track and soccer. And they are L9 gymnasts.

Our gym doesn’t waste practice time. 3 hours, no snacks, chit chat. Water breaks only. Lots of conditioning. Get in, get to work, done. More hours available in the summer. Of course it can be done.

Yes you can get to Level 9 on 12 hours a week. You not going to be a 6/7 th grader but it can be done.

Mine got L7 doing 9 hours. Folks saying that can’t be done either.

 

[rlm's mom]

There is the question.

There is just not much in elite... first and foremost... competitions. If there was a more robust Hopes / Elite competition structure... that alone would be enough to keep a few more involved in it. I mean... come on... there were 7 qualifiers this year and the closest one to me was 8 hours away.

I don’t think more domestic competitions should help. More international meets and country vs country tournament opportunities would encourage more kids to stay at the elite level. In European countries for example there are many small meets between 2/3 countries on a regular basis. All elites have a chance to get involved - including juniors!