Level 6 to L7

[5brownies]

My daughter is currently training L6 and is ready to compete State in Nov. Her coach has said she will have to wait an entire year to compete 7. Does it take a year to learn the skills? If she was trained now, the next 7 months could she be ready? She learned all of her L6 skills in 3 months. And has already scored high enough to score out.
Any opinions are appreciated.

 

[NotAMom]

My daughter is currently training L6 and is ready to compete State in Nov. Her coach has said she will have to wait an entire year to compete 7. Does it take a year to learn the skills? If she was trained now, the next 7 months could she be ready? She learned all of her L6 skills in 3 months. And has already scored high enough to score out.
Any opinions are appreciated.

From my observation, it all depends on how strong she is as a L6. L7 skills are not that different than what is found in strong L6 routines. Also, bear in mind that L6 is the toughest scoring level according to many. Also, a good gym would probably demand for top form and strong skills for advancement. Maybe your gym is one of those. If that is the case, she is better off in a long run.

 

[Gymdad2]

I'm with Chanwmr on this. L7 will require new routines so unless your dd is already uptraining it would be very difficult for her to be ready to compete 7 this year. Remember that this is a marathon and trust your dd's coaches and gym to do her training correctly.

 

[Billy]

Our gym scores out of level 6 in the fall and moves straight into level 7 for January, assuming the child scores out early enough to prepare for the L7 season.

 

[gym law mom]

Our gym does a 6/7 season(compete L7 from Jan to March) for girls that are 2nd year L6s. The decision on who gets to do it is made in the summer so they can start getting floor and beam routines done. Its tough on the girls and parents! They have to compete all the L6 meets in the fall plus be working on the L7 routines. I've seen quite a few that did the 6/7 season end up repeating L7 because they are just worn out after that year and don't have the oomph to push through to L8 during the summer.

Gyms vary as far a move up. Our gym requires girls at L7 to have giants although you can do a clear hip on low and clear hip on high bar and still be within the rules. It can take girls quite awhile to get decent giants if thats what your gym requires. They only way you'll know is to ask the coach what exactly your gym requires at L7.

My gymmie did a season as a L6 and then moved on to training L7/8 skills. I think that one year as a L6 with tougher judging and more expectations in her form, strength etc. made L7 easier for her.

 

[NotAMom]

My 2 cents...

I think insisting on giants at L7 is an overkill. If they look good, that's great. In the judges' eyes that's opportunity for preference points -- especially at post season meets. And, the giants will get them ready for L8. Otherwise, it hinders the gymnast's progress and performance at L7; and meanwhile they get killed with the scores. That does little for her in the motivation department (unless bragging rights is more important than confidence and competence). I've seen L7s from other gyms that push for giants even before a good kip cast handstand or less.

 

[enginesmilez]

well, every person of course is different. it depends on if she is ready for7. i waited a whole year and competed the whole season and now i am about to start level 7.

 

[gymdog]

Depends on the gym and the gymnast. L7 isn't all that much of a jump on 3 events (assuming the 6 skills are strong and not a problem - if she just learned them starting L6, then yes). Bars is a whole different story. Personally my standard for L7 bars would require more time for most gymnasts, unless they were done with the 6 skills and could train the 7 ones that whole summer before (not unlikely, but it would be how things would have to play out). Giants are a definite preference, but even beyond that the shaping of the swinging and circling skills and correct technique for flyaway release are absolutely a must for any gymnast that plans to progress through optionals. Yes, the "bare minimum" L7 bar SKILLS aren't that different, but the composition is, and I think if the shaping and confidence isn't down before you move on to flyaways out of a circling skill, etc, you're just running into more problems later. It's not exactly either/or because obviously you can be uptraining all of this before competing L6, but that depends on where the individual gymnast has progressed to at that point.

 

[Aussie_coach]

There is no reason why a gymnast should take so long to be ready. In reality gymnasts should be uptraining all the time. A level 6 gymnasts should not have to spend all her training time doing level 6 skills and routines unless she was moved to level 6 before she was ready. Level 6 skills should have been mastered long before they are competed, and time in each training session should be dedicated to training level 7 skills. There are not many that are that different.

For vault most level 7's do a handspring just as they have for level 5 and 6, so they are working on it all the time. On bars they don't need giants all they really need is a clear hip on both low and high bar and a cast to 45 above horizontal which again they should be working anyway in level 6. On floor just a back layout, and a front tumbling pass like a handspring front sault, on beam they need a flight skill like a back handspring and most other stuff is fairly similar to level 6.

A good coach will have them doing it well before they need it. For example when they work beam, they work their basics, dance, level 6 skills and routines and finish with some work on back handsprings.

 

[gymch34]

The best thing about L7 is its a full season of basic skills that if perfected will most likey lead into a good optional career. I think for most gymnasts they need a full season of 6 and a full season of 7 to be successful. I do not require L7's to have their giants, but in this part of the country, most 7's do and you cant score higher than a 9.0 without them. Also, the top kids are doing bwo bhs and a Roundoff dismount. These skills take time to develop and I think its imperitive to take the time to develop them safely!

Physical strength and maturity also play a role. Level 7 is usually a very high scoring level by the end of the season- 9.6 's are barely placing in the top 3, so I think coaches are SMART to go slow and develop STRONG basics for the future!

 

[NotAMom]

Giants at L7

In the region that we compete in, giants were definitely there at L7 meets but good ones were not all that common. Typically, the same few girls were competing for the top bar spots. The rest of the giant doers are just there going through the motions (many with huge deductions). Then at the states level, there are just a few more thrown in the top mix where giants were seemingly a must.

Also, up to now, giants are typically not needed to score high. In fact, 4-5 years ago, one of our state champs won without one (told by his dad, who was a coach). In 08/09 season (the only one near and dear to me), tight form with minimal skills can often get you a 9.3 or higher. At the same meets, the L7 girls who get the big skills (perfect handstands and giants with relatively good form) would score merely .2 or .3 higher. That is a lot of work for such a small gain in value.

BTW, with all that being said, I think rules are changed for the 09/10 USAG season, where all L7s are required to do two circles for a 10.0 start. (It has been discussed in other CB threads) That means everyone at L7 will have to at least consider doing a giant or opt to do another form of circle (say a sole circle or a second clear hip). For the purpose of advancement, the choice is obvious but it could mean a longer journey for many L7 gymnasts, either to become ready to score well or advance to the next level.

Coaches, I'm just running my mouth so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[gymch34]

Level 7 has always required 2 circling elements- that is not new.

 

[cher062]

Our gym does a 6/7 season(compete L7 from Jan to March) for girls that are 2nd year L6s. The decision on who gets to do it is made in the summer so they can start getting floor and beam routines done. Its tough on the girls and parents! They have to compete all the L6 meets in the fall plus be working on the L7 routines. I've seen quite a few that did the 6/7 season end up repeating L7 because they are just worn out after that year and don't have the oomph to push through to L8 during the summer.

Gyms vary as far a move up. Our gym requires girls at L7 to have giants although you can do a clear hip on low and clear hip on high bar and still be within the rules. It can take girls quite awhile to get decent giants if thats what your gym requires. They only way you'll know is to ask the coach what exactly your gym requires at L7.

My gymmie did a season as a L6 and then moved on to training L7/8 skills. I think that one year as a L6 with tougher judging and more expectations in her form, strength etc. made L7 easier for her.

This is what our gym does too. I don't think it is benificial to try to move the girls quickly throught the ranks either. Spending a year at a level is the norm around here too. And even then it will depend on how strong the girls are, how well their form is etc. Just because they can do a skill doesn't mean it is the best form. Training 2 different levels at once can be stressful too on the gymnast and this is supposed to be fun for them. Nothing wrong at all being a very strong 6 for the second session and going into 7 next year as a really strong 7.

 

[gymdog]

Giants are definitely favored here. Many many very good L7 bar routines with giants. Typically we will have bar scores easily ranging into the 9.6s here at states, and one year I had a former teammate get 4th place with a 9.8. If you have relatively young girls, they better be working bars if they want a chance to compete at this level. Even in smaller meets you aren't going to get a 9 without cast handstands, giants or a circling skill that actually hits handstand. There are many reasons for this (one being that the girls who have these skills tend to be inherently better) but it's been this way since I've been a L7. No matter what the official requirements say, routines without these skills simply don't score that well and aren't competitive. If it's the one thing holding them back, a tight routine without them that meets the requirements may get high enough scores to contribute to the AA score. I'm not a fan of inflexible "extra skill requirements" either.

But giants are a pretty standard L7 skill to me. Even when I was a L7, we were starting to see that top routines had a free hip handstand as well as giants. There are so many routines that have them now, with decent form, that routines lacking the amplitude of either of these elements just aren't going to cut it. If a gym wants a competitive L7 squad, they are going to require or strongly push giants. Having traveled, spoken to people, etc, it doesn't seem like very many places are that different in this respect. My general operating assumption at this point certainly is competitive L7 routine=giants/circling skill through handstand.

Also, as far as "a lot of work for little gain in value" certainly if the gymnast can safely perform these skills, much less with excellent form, there is no question in my mind what they are going to do. If they wish to progress through optionals it is very important that they start building the endurance, competitive experience warming up more difficult and a wider variety of skills, and getting very comfortable with these BASICS. Actually I would say it is completely counterintuitive to the point of competitive gymnastics to call anything done well "a lot of work for little value". Of course it's a lot of work - gymnastics always is if you plan to progress. I'm confused as to what else could be expected. At a state meet under L8 here, .3 can easily be the difference between 1st and 10th or even more (after that things go through a major bottle neck). More amplitude and better form is ALWAYS worth the work. My old coach regularly encourages her 6s and even some 5s to cast to handstand in their routines even at the risk of "going over" - she would rather see them go for the handstand and possibly fall at those levels than play it safe with a small cast. By late in the season, those who are capable of it are often showing a lot of confidence and control on these skills - they learn by the experience of doing it. It's a process, not just one meet where they might have gotten a better score with a lower cast.

 

[gymfan4ever95]

At our gym, we compete level 6 in the fall and try to get the mobility score of 31. If we get that score, you compete as a Prep 1 (which is like a level 6 1/2) in the winter, and if you are already ready for level 7, you can do that in the winter instead of Prep 1. If you don't level out of level 6, you can compete that again in the winter. As for the giants, my coach would like for us to have them, but i don't know if we have to because we only have 1 gymnast that is an optional and she is a level 7 and is currently learning giants. I am a level 6 and i haven't started level 7 skills (except on floor and vault).

 

[lakshmi369]

Thanks coach

Giants are definitely favored here. Many many very good L7 bar routines with giants. Typically we will have bar scores easily ranging into the 9.6s here at states, and one year I had a former teammate get 4th place with a 9.8. If you have relatively young girls, they better be working bars if they want a chance to compete at this level. Even in smaller meets you aren't going to get a 9 without cast handstands, giants or a circling skill that actually hits handstand. There are many reasons for this (one being that the girls who have these skills tend to be inherently better) but it's been this way since I've been a L7. No matter what the official requirements say, routines without these skills simply don't score that well and aren't competitive. If it's the one thing holding them back, a tight routine without them that meets the requirements may get high enough scores to contribute to the AA score. I'm not a fan of inflexible "extra skill requirements" either.

But giants are a pretty standard L7 skill to me. Even when I was a L7, we were starting to see that top routines had a free hip handstand as well as giants. There are so many routines that have them now, with decent form, that routines lacking the amplitude of either of these elements just aren't going to cut it. If a gym wants a competitive L7 squad, they are going to require or strongly push giants. Having traveled, spoken to people, etc, it doesn't seem like very many places are that different in this respect. My general operating assumption at this point certainly is competitive L7 routine=giants/circling skill through handstand.

Also, as far as "a lot of work for little gain in value" certainly if the gymnast can safely perform these skills, much less with excellent form, there is no question in my mind what they are going to do. If they wish to progress through optionals it is very important that they start building the endurance, competitive experience warming up more difficult and a wider variety of skills, and getting very comfortable with these BASICS. Actually I would say it is completely counterintuitive to the point of competitive gymnastics to call anything done well "a lot of work for little value". Of course it's a lot of work - gymnastics always is if you plan to progress. I'm confused as to what else could be expected. At a state meet under L8 here, .3 can easily be the difference between 1st and 10th or even more (after that things go through a major bottle neck). More amplitude and better form is ALWAYS worth the work. My old coach regularly encourages her 6s and even some 5s to cast to handstand in their routines even at the risk of "going over" - she would rather see them go for the handstand and possibly fall at those levels than play it safe with a small cast. By late in the season, those who are capable of it are often showing a lot of confidence and control on these skills - they learn by the experience of doing it. It's a process, not just one meet where they might have gotten a better score with a lower cast.

That is very insightful. Thanks for the point of view.
As a parent I am thrilled to have my DD do a second year of L7 to get those skills (plus more) now before going on to have a so-so year of L8. She is working a Cast - Clearhip- Handstand to Giant with layout flyaway on high bar which will be so much better than what she had to work with last year and it is coming for her.
I was curious if you also feel that pushing the envelope of L7 skills is better than having a "lesser" set of tools to work with at L8?

 

[Chalky]

At our gym, we compete level 6 in the fall and try to get the mobility score of 31. If we get that score, you compete as a Prep 1 (which is like a level 6 1/2) in the winter, and if you are already ready for level 7, you can do that in the winter instead of Prep 1. If you don't level out of level 6, you can compete that again in the winter. As for the giants, my coach would like for us to have them, but i don't know if we have to because we only have 1 gymnast that is an optional and she is a level 7 and is currently learning giants. I am a level 6 and i haven't started level 7 skills (except on floor and vault).

I know every gym has different standards, but I find accepting a 31.00 as showing proficiency at Level 6, and therefore ready to move on, disturbing. Yes, I get that Level 6 scoring is tough, etc. but I would not accept just attaining the mobility score as proof of readiness to move up.

That's my personal opinion, and I'm not criticizing gymfan4ever95 at all; she is just stating what her gym does. I have seen gymnasts who have rushed through Levels 4,5 & 6 (spending less than 6 months at each) and generally it's not pretty. Some very talented gymmies can cope with this pace, but most will suffer in the long run from not having sufficiently mastered the basics.

I know of a few gymnasts who have gone straight from Level 6 to Level 7 and done fairly well, but I would say they were well above average to begin with. If the child is still young, why not take some more time and maybe compete Prep-Op in the year spent training for 7?

 

[NotAMom]

Also, as far as "a lot of work for little gain in value" certainly if the gymnast can safely perform these skills, much less with excellent form, there is no question in my mind what they are going to do. If they wish to progress through optionals it is very important that they start building the endurance, competitive experience warming up more difficult and a wider variety of skills, and getting very comfortable with these BASICS. Actually I would say it is completely counterintuitive to the point of competitive gymnastics to call anything done well "a lot of work for little value". Of course it's a lot of work - gymnastics always is if you plan to progress. I'm confused as to what else could be expected. At a state meet under L8 here, .3 can easily be the difference between 1st and 10th or even more (after that things go through a major bottle neck). More amplitude and better form is ALWAYS worth the work. My old coach regularly encourages her 6s and even some 5s to cast to handstand in their routines even at the risk of "going over" - she would rather see them go for the handstand and possibly fall at those levels than play it safe with a small cast. By late in the season, those who are capable of it are often showing a lot of confidence and control on these skills - they learn by the experience of doing it. It's a process, not just one meet where they might have gotten a better score with a lower cast.

I hear you perfectly (thanks), and agree with the "instant gratification versus long term gain" dilemma and perseverance is the key (I've taught another sport). And, I wouldn't teach my child otherwise. Yes, it does sound counter-intuitive and counter-productive but I did state it in good intentions. It's just that it may be hard to swallow for many and just as misleading for others if not forewarned.

Level 7 has always required 2 circling elements- that is not new.

I stand corrected. I was confused and what I meant to point out was the new requirement to do two different circles (just checked with my L7). Scrap what I said about two clear hips as they are already doing it.

 

[gymkat]

There is no requirement to do 2 different circles, just 2 circling elements... one must be a B, and one must be from groups 3, 6, or 7...

 

[gymfan4ever95]

I know every gym has different standards, but I find accepting a 31.00 as showing proficiency at Level 6, and therefore ready to move on, disturbing. Yes, I get that Level 6 scoring is tough, etc. but I would not accept just attaining the mobility score as proof of readiness to move up.

That's my personal opinion, and I'm not criticizing gymfan4ever95 at all; she is just stating what her gym does. I have seen gymnasts who have rushed through Levels 4,5 & 6 (spending less than 6 months at each) and generally it's not pretty. Some very talented gymmies can cope with this pace, but most will suffer in the long run from not having sufficiently mastered the basics.

I know of a few gymnasts who have gone straight from Level 6 to Level 7 and done fairly well, but I would say they were well above average to begin with. If the child is still young, why not take some more time and maybe compete Prep-Op in the year spent training for 7?

Yes, i agree. My coach would like us to get at least a 34 twice during the season, but we just had a recent little meeting about that. I just really want to get to optionals because i am already 14 and i want to do college gymnastics, so i talked to my coach about it. She said she would try to help me and that she understands, and so i need to get a 31 and she will move me up, but i can't compete level 7 without all my skills, so i have to do prep 1 for a year before level 7. But in the other levels, (4 and 5) we have to get at least a 34 twice, she just made an acception for me. So i see how only achieving a 31 is unreasonable, it is just what my coach will allow me to do.