looking for moms of level 9/10 gymnasts

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happyfacetwin wrote: “BTW I don't mean to judge rbw's choice - I'm sure that was more complex than it seems.â€￾

Well, thanks for that, but it wasn’t really any more complex than it seemed.

The choice to pursue an elite track depends on the realization that increased effort can bring increased rewards. I don’t think that my dd can train less than half as much as an elite and less, even, than most nonelite gymnasts and be competitive, but it’s clear that the same considerations must also apply in school.

Aussie_coach asked, “Why is deferring for a few years to get some life experience not an accepted practice [in the US]?â€￾ and fuzi answered, “More people take a few years off than you might expect . . . . In reality, people take a lot of different paths through their education.â€￾

That raises the question of whether or not there is a cost to deferring education. You’ve indicated that isn’t a concern in your country, but it could be an issue for some students here. It happens that my next-door neighbor is a semi-retired professor who attends to admission at the university in our town. When she learned that my dd was on track to exhaust the local high school’s math curriculum by her sophomore year, she told me that it was essential that dd take addional math courses at the university (and not at the local junior college, as those grades would be unofficially discounted) because competitive colleges, in her opinion quite decidedly but unofficially, did not want to see any gap in mathematics instruction in students who intended to continue in the sciences, as such students have historically lagged upon admission. I don’t doubt that the situation could be quite different for students with different plans.

However, it happens that we never considered deferring our child's education--we just decided that we weren't interested in an elite track. I thought that akoshinski27 might find it interesting to consider a viewpoint that might be rather atypical on this board.
 
To happyfacetwin and aussie coach,
It is interesting to see how differant things are where you live,but i think im confused. is what your saying mean that if my daughter goes elite that equals no college? .... After talking briefly with the coach, Kirah will be going 10 next season and doing a season of 10. so the pressure to go elite is off.....for now. please write back, i dont know if i totally understand and responded to your posts with what you were looking for???? anyways, thank you for posting .. :) Amanda
Hi Amanda, I'm just a chatterbox having a chatty long weekend. I don't personally think elite necessarily precludes or delays continued education, but I did get the impression (right or wrong) some other people might think so?

... That raises the question of whether or not there is a cost to deferring education. ... it could be an issue for some students here. ...because competitive colleges, in her opinion quite decidedly but unofficially, did not want to see any gap in mathematics instruction in students who intended to continue in the sciences, as such students have historically lagged upon admission....
That is interesting!! Mature aged (ie: 21+) students (ie: who have a huge lag in all subjects) here have much, much higher marks on average than school leavers. It's one of the reasons our uni's entry requirements are much more relaxed for over 21s. Wonder why we're so different?

Anyway ... back to the OP ... hooray for Kirah to be doing so well, and for her family for making a plan she and her coach are both happy with.
I'm from a country where elite is the "A" choice (for lack of a better phrase).
And never having thought it through before now :rolleyes:, I had for some reason assumed a college gym career would be a back up plan rather than main aspiration for the US girls.
Scholarships don't really exist for education in Oz (gymnastics ones or any other type for that matter). Our degrees are generally funded by govt debt which is repaid by the individuals who get them through an increased tax rate until it's repaid (but lots of us earn less than the threshhold so pay little if anything back, and anyway it's written off when we die).
But now I'm starting to see why a sponsored education might be the main ambition (vs competing internationally) for someone who would otherwise have to really pay for their education.
I guess that's what AC was getting at but I'm a bit slow. Bear with me - I'm a natural blonde. :D
PS: I do get that you're keeping all options open for Kirah.
 
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Everyone needs to make the right decision for their own family and their own child. Not every child or every family is suited to Elite gymnastics, and its not what every family wants for their child. However, this forum provides a great sounding board for such decisions. Its a great benefit to hear from others who's opinions vary greatly from your own to introduce ways of looking at things that may never have been considered. Even if what it does in the end is reinforce the decision you have made for yourself.
 
akoshinski27 We were not saying that going elite would equate to no college, we have just seen that many have chosen to go against an elite career for the fear of the effect it would have on their children's education. We come from a country where sporting success is generally ranked far higher than education. Also a country where "an education for all" is not the theme, more the theme is "an education for those who actually want one and who have the ability to get one". But our society is set up differently and our advice may not be appropriate for people in the US.

Anyway away from education as it isn't your big concern, you are right in that there are many deep considerations to going elite. It takes a very unique type of child and a very unique family situation to succeed as an elite gymnast. Generally the family needs to but the needs of the gymnast above all else, including the needs of other siblings and parents. many families move across the country to meet with a child training needs, or take on 2nd jobs to pay for them.

The expense will be very high, she will need to train more often than most adults go to their full time jobs and travel frequently, and yes a lot of kids burn out and end up hating the sport they once loved. Of course this isn't a decision you need to make now, but it would be ideal to watch your daughter and her coaches over her level 10 season to see whether you think she would cope with this?

Your daughter
Is she resilient? Does she deal well with fear? When someone gives her a challenge does it take her a while to warm to it or does she seize it with both hands? Does she get injured easily or have some long term injuries she is dealing with? Does she enjoy the conditioning work as much as the skill development? Does she love to perform or get crowd shy? Does she find she gets stressed when things start to get very busy or does she take it in her stride? Does she prefer to be at the gym than anywhere else and will turn down any invitation offered because she doesn't want to miss practice? Is she one of those kids who will go to train even if she is sick or injured because she just can't stand to miss it? When the coaches ask her to do an exercise does she just to the exercise to what was asked or does she always want to do more? (A great description of the elite kid, is the one who will do 50 push ups whenever the coach asks for 40).

Your family
A you prepared to out gymnastics before all other family events? Are there other siblings involved? Is it really financially viable? Is someone available to drive her to and from training 4 times a day every day? Are you prepared to step back and watch your child in pain sometimes, in tears sometimes and allow it to be part of the sport?

Her coaches?
Have they trained elites before? Have their elites had success or have they burned out before they got a chance to do anything significant? Do their ex gymnasts happily pop in for visits every now and again or once they are done do they tend to steer clear of the place? Are they good motivators?
 
My granddaughter is starting her L-10 training now. She is 13 but will be 14 for competition season. She is excited about going to L-10. Elite is a lot more traveling and time commitment than we are willing to take on right now. Currently she is training 20 hours/week. With that said, I would hope down the road that she will compete in some Pre-Elite training and events for the experience. Like your daughter she has missed almost the whole year with an elbow injury and should have been at L-10 last year. I wish your gymnast much success at her new level. Remember a JO Level 10 CAN compete internationally if she has mad skills like Kayla Williams.
 
GymGranny,
Thank you and best wishes to your grandaughter. I totally understand being on hold with the injury thing. Kirah was dissapointed when she had to put off 10 weeks of training to nurse an injury. My husband and i said 10 weeks now.......or possiblley give up gymnastics due to an injury you cant recover from. She picked 10 weeks of minimal training. It was tough for her to get back into it. but she got there. Now my daughter is at 18 hours a week. Summer hours go up.... we will see what a level of 10 does for her, then go from there. everyone on here has been so helpful.
Again.....Good luck and God bless.
 
why not?

This site has been such a cultural education to me.
In Oz there are no college gymnastics programs, and gymnasts (however high they get in the sport) almost always retire between grades 10 and 12. An Oz parent who was academically ambitious for their child would probably favour gymnastics as least likely sport to interfere with university entrance study/marks. We also attend whatever uni is closest to home. The few exceptions are if you qualify into a subject at a distant uni but not the local one. And all unis and degrees are totally equal - we don't get what advantage their could be in travelling to Harvard or whatever.
So my thoughts on this are very biased by my cultural difference ...
But here's my worry for any gymnast who has the potential to be world class (ie: elite) but this potential is sacrificed - and this opportunity denied - because her parents are determined to prioritise education: There is clear expectation that she'd better end up with a brilliant career. And whether or not she succeeds - and whether or not she's satisfied with the brilliant career - she'll always wonder what might have been.
I don't personally get it. The opportunity to be an elite gymnast is fleeting. If it's missed, there's no turning back the clock.
Whereas education is available at any age and stage of life. You can be a hairdresser today and a doctor tomorrow if you want to be. Unless Patch Adams was the last mature aged student allowed entry to medical school, I gather this is still true in the US - isn't it? So what's gained by sacrificing sporting opportunities? At best a couple of years head start on a career? if that!! Is it worth it??
Whilst few of my friends even knew I was a former gymnast until DD started gym - and even now none of them knows I was good enough to have trained at the AIS (national sports centre) for a while - it does far more for my positive self concept than my graduate degree. I wouldn't have to think for a second if a child of mine was offered a fleeting, never-to-be-repeated opportunity, whether it be elite sports, modelling (HA - they'll be a foot too short), etc ...


Exactly what I was thinking!! This is an opportunity that won't come again. If your daughter really wants to why not take the chance? There is nothing that will be of harm that I can think of. You know your daughter best and you will be sure to ake the right decision for her and your family.
 
Age 15 is the last year of pre-elite, so if this is the plan, everyone should eb aware of this. There is no more senior (age 16+) preelite. If the gymnast is 16, she must try to get an international senior score- somethng VERY difficult if you are a new elite.
 
Actually, they got rid of pre-elite for 15 year olds too. At 15, Jr. int'l elite is all she'd be eligible.
 
I can't imagine why someone would even bother shooting for "pre-elite"...either they think she has the capability to get the elite score or she doesn't. To me, when someone says they are "going for pre-elite" , I think your coach has done you a disservice by lowering the bar (and not really telling you that your daughter won't make elite). If you test and the score falls in the pre-elite range, that's different than trying to get the pre-elite score.

The scores for Jr and Sr have been lowered in the past couple of years and sometimes the score for VISAS is lowered if there aren't enough competitors. When the new scoring originally came out Jrs needed a 53 and Srs needed a 55 to make elite...now it's 51 and 53 because girls were having a tough time getting those scores.
 
Interesting thread this has turned into.
My dd ended a second level 8 season early because of injury, but is back training for L9 (probably)/L10 (possibly)/elite (maybe, sometime, next year??)
I really don't know. I just try to be encouraging and make sure she is happy. She and the coaches decide what to do and when. My feelings about elite track - they change - sometimes by the minute:D

I just wanted to say Hi, I'm the parent of an upper level gymnast and it can be the craziest, scariest, most frustrating thing ever, but it is also rewarding, interesting, challenging, and occasionally - fun!!


Bookworm - I agree about the pre-elite thing. (don't get me started on HOPES :rolleyes:) HA! I find the changing scores sends a confusing message about how hard elite actually is - shouldn't the girls be training to reach the higher score, not hoping the score gets lowered so they can make it by the skin of their teeth? Anyway, I've heard that the powers that be are cracking down this year on needing higher scores, skills, and execution because there are too many girls with the title of "elite" who are not ready, and might never be ready to be competitive as international elites.
(that's not to diminish anyone's hopes and dreams. (or even their achievements) Remember, my dd has that same dream.)
 
I can't imagine why someone would even bother shooting for "pre-elite"...either they think she has the capability to get the elite score or she doesn't. To me, when someone says they are "going for pre-elite" , I think your coach has done you a disservice by lowering the bar (and not really telling you that your daughter won't make elite). If you test and the score falls in the pre-elite range, that's different than trying to get the pre-elite score.

The scores for Jr and Sr have been lowered in the past couple of years and sometimes the score for VISAS is lowered if there aren't enough competitors. When the new scoring originally came out Jrs needed a 53 and Srs needed a 55 to make elite...now it's 51 and 53 because girls were having a tough time getting those scores.

I think the point of pre-elite is to transition slowly into the elite system. Maybe the idea is the first year, or maybe even two if the girl is young, to get the experience constructing elite routines and competing at US Challenge while still being eligible to compete JO. I would think getting the pre-elite score isn't the ultimate goal, but maybe the coach is thinking--at 12-13 qualify pre-elite, 14 get the int'l elite score, 15 get to Nationals--maybe national team.

I don't think I agree with the current trend of cutting down the numbers of elites. IMHO having a bigger talent pool to develop and pull from is better. THe current trend is to have only 10-12 on the national team, so by the time half them are injured at camp the world teams are made of the last girls standing. IN recent years, the national team has been thin enough that they're inviting girls not even on the team to world selection camps and olympic trials.
 
Hi...

My DD is 13, just finishing a L8 season and on an elite track. Whether or not she will ever test is up to the coaches, but her goal is to be elite. Her coaches will also only take a kid elite if they will do well at the elite level...the theory behind that being training elite is so hard on a body, if your kid won't do well, then save the body for NCAA.

My DD trains 36-37 hours a week and has a modified school schedule...she has done this for 2 years. My question to you would be, is your daughter ready to make those everyday changes? These are still the big things that go through my DD's mind---it is alot for a 13yo to give up.

As far as the actual sport goes...we just take it a year at a time. College is not an option in our house and our DD knows that...whether she goes on a gym scholarship or not. Elite can be hard, but nothing worth having is ever easy. If your coach is qualified and willing, your DD is committed to her part of the deal and you are aware of the financial aspect I say try it. If it is her dream...she will never be able to go back. This is what we have decided for our DD.

Please feel free to PM me....I am always up for a new friend :)
 
Hi...

My DD is 13, just finishing a L8 season and on an elite track. Whether or not she will ever test is up to the coaches, but her goal is to be elite. Her coaches will also only take a kid elite if they will do well at the elite level...the theory behind that being training elite is so hard on a body, if your kid won't do well, then save the body for NCAA.

My DD trains 36-37 hours a week and has a modified school schedule...she has done this for 2 years. My question to you would be, is your daughter ready to make those everyday changes? These are still the big things that go through my DD's mind---it is alot for a 13yo to give up.

As far as the actual sport goes...we just take it a year at a time. College is not an option in our house and our DD knows that...whether she goes on a gym scholarship or not. Elite can be hard, but nothing worth having is ever easy. If your coach is qualified and willing, your DD is committed to her part of the deal and you are aware of the financial aspect I say try it. If it is her dream...she will never be able to go back. This is what we have decided for our DD.

Please feel free to PM me....I am always up for a new friend :)

I'm just curious...why is college NOT an option in your house?
 
Gymjoy- I like your reference to HOPES...my feeling on HOPES is that it's a program that USAG HOPES you spend your money on!! It's all part of that pre-elite system where the gymnast isn't good enough to test for their elite score so they do "pre-elite" or HOPES.

I think if they have the skills for elite then they should test that when they are ready. I don't think pre-elite really preps them for elite at all; it justs keeps them in that system. At many testings now you see girls who are mediocre Level 8s and 9s at an Elite Qualifier because there is no minimum required (ie. you don't have to have gone to Easterns/Westerns or JO Nationals to sign up) ...you pay the $100 entry fee and you test. We were at a few of the testings and it was embarassing for some of these girls...they just weren't up to the skill level required but their coaches had fed them a line that they were and off they went to the qualifiers!! I think these are the types of gymnasts that the powers that be are trying to weed out...

A few years ago, the qualifying score for VISAS was lowered to 50 to get enough competitors and all those girls who previously had not gotten the 53s could call themselves "Elite" because they went to VISAS. I don't necessarily think that USAG wants less elites but with the system as it is , that's what they have. They make it so difficult and the injury rate is so high that as one poster said, it's the last man standing..
 
Gymjoy- I like your reference to HOPES...my feeling on HOPES is that it's a program that USAG HOPES you spend your money on!! It's all part of that pre-elite system where the gymnast isn't good enough to test for their elite score so they do "pre-elite" or HOPES.

I think if they have the skills for elite then they should test that when they are ready. I don't think pre-elite really preps them for elite at all; it justs keeps them in that system. At many testings now you see girls who are mediocre Level 8s and 9s at an Elite Qualifier because there is no minimum required (ie. you don't have to have gone to Easterns/Westerns or JO Nationals to sign up) ...you pay the $100 entry fee and you test. We were at a few of the testings and it was embarassing for some of these girls...they just weren't up to the skill level required but their coaches had fed them a line that they were and off they went to the qualifiers!! I think these are the types of gymnasts that the powers that be are trying to weed out...

A few years ago, the qualifying score for VISAS was lowered to 50 to get enough competitors and all those girls who previously had not gotten the 53s could call themselves "Elite" because they went to VISAS. I don't necessarily think that USAG wants less elites but with the system as it is , that's what they have. They make it so difficult and the injury rate is so high that as one poster said, it's the last man standing..


In regards to HOPES, I have to disagree just a bit. I know two gymnasts that did HOPES last year because they were both only 10 years old. I don't think it's an issue of not being good enough, they are just so young. Both qualified easily and it was a good experience for both of them. It's dipping your toe in instead of jumping in.
 
I read that as the daughter WILL go to college--she does not have the option to not go. But, I could be wrong...

blue

Blue socks, I interpreted it the same way as you. And that's precisely why - if bookworm hadn't asked - I probably would have.
Why would you require a child to go to college if their desired future career didn't require it? Or why would you require a child to pursue only a career that required a degree??
 
In regards to HOPES, I have to disagree just a bit. I know two gymnasts that did HOPES last year because they were both only 10 years old. I don't think it's an issue of not being good enough, they are just so young. Both qualified easily and it was a good experience for both of them. It's dipping your toe in instead of jumping in.

It is fine that they went to HOPES and had a great experience, but they didn't really need to do it. They are so young that if they continued training elite and competing JO for the competitive experience for a couple more years they could test straight into elite level without wasting time and money on HOPES (or even pre-elite). I agree with Bookworm that USAG uses it as a money producer. Most of the Hopes girls do not go on to elite. And I do not believe, though I can not back it up except for a few elites we know, that few to none of the current national team members ever tested pre-elite or HOPES. Not even all of them ever tested TOPs. These things are just not necessary for becoming a successful elite.
 

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