Lower levels indicators of optionals?

[Petunia]

Hello!
I think I've asked this before but need to hear it again! LoL
my dd just turned 8 last month and just started her level 5 season.
Her level 5 looks like it's starting off just like her level 4.
She ends up with middle of the road scores. I'm always blown away by so many in her age group that start off the season already scoring low to mid 9's. And these are not girls repeating level 5!lol

So here is my question: Her coach always gasps at her beam and her floor..how beatiful they look! but then she says unfortunately judges at this level want to see very sharp (robot) moves. She says my dd's style is prefered at the compulsory levels. And I'm going...hhhhmmm is this her way of keeping her here? Lol
my dd enjoys it very much but they have to put in 22 hrs a week (sort of standard here - region 3) and I'm thinking is it all that necessary?
Are these just stepping stones and she just needs to hang in there?
She works so hard and WANTS to stand on those blocks!!!! Lol
but...I'm not sure what to think! For now..she just keeps trying her best but I am curious.

 

[gymcoach34]

22 hours/week and middle of the road scores=RED FLAG!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Gymcoach34... my thoughts EXACTLY!!!! AND you did say LEVEL 5, right??? WOW... I think my daughter worked out 12 hours/week at Level 5 and scoring very well and placing at meets. RED FLAG FOR SURE!!!

 

[MdGymMom01]

Yup, RED FLAG. Level 5, 22 hrs a week and mediocre scores??? Something isn't right.

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

Keep in mind they're in Region III where it could be typical to do 22 hrs/week and hence middling scores mightn't be a red flag. Though it does seem overkill to do 22 hrs/week and not get much out of it - what's the point?

Your daughter is 8 yrs old. You say she isn't scoring well because she doesn't have tight moves - she probably has some form/tightness issues that are common in the lower levels especially sometimes with younger kids. It's hard for parents to tell what "tight" is sometimes: what a parent sees as soft and elegant may look sloppy to a judge, or it may just not be the way it's written in the code (this would definitely change at optionals). Also she's only competed 2 levels so far: level 4 and 5 really are building blocks to optional gymnastics, and L6 is kind of a halfway thing in my opinion: it's like timers for L7.

She may develop better body awareness when she gets older and at a higher level if that's the issue. She may not. It's sort of a toss-up. Basically what I would want in a gym training 22 hrs with an 8 yr old L5...I would want to see lots of uptraining and strength work to prepare for higher levels. This would mean that placing 1st in compulsories isn't the goal: it's a longer term plan. But if the gym puts a lot of stock in scoring well at compulsories and it isn't working...maybe the program is a little lacking.

 

[Petunia]

Hmmm...interesting! Thanks for the replies!
Yeah 18-22 hours or so is typical around here so I know that where ever we go, the amount of hours required are going to be very similar.
For level 4 they trained 12-16 hours. She did "fine" at state in her other events but she did win 1st on floor..so she was happy about that.

The first 1.5 hours or so is pure conditioning then they get a 10-15 min break half way...it's still a lot of hours!

Her coach always says "I don't care about the scores" right now.
Hmmmmm.

Thanks!!

 

[gymcoach34]

I don't care about scores either-but with all that conditioning & training time-they should have excellent form & basics-even if they are uptraining & not doing a lot of routines. Just by having excellent form & basics in the compulsory levels the scores should be in the high 8's to low 9's......... I used to coach in region 5 at an elite gym where our L5's trained 16 hours/week and scored very well-and that was just not doing routines.

Its a red flag no matter what the region-something is missing IMHO-the compulsory skills are the same in every region. The OP feels it too or she wouldnt have posted.

 

[lilgymmie7]

When my older DD was in gymnastics, I noted her excellent form with every routine. She was as graceful as a Russian ballerina. I also was shocked when she went to meets and didn't do as well as her coaches thought she would. She began scoring in the lower 9s, but pretty much stayed there all season. It wasn't until we moved her to another gym that I realized- new coaches were up on what judges were looking for- that she was making minor mistakes. The new gym had to tear down the routine and rebuild. Her scores improved. The new gym did not train as many hours either. I heard that at compulsory level there are certain things they look for like skill perfection, leaps, and amplitude. On vault, they even score the run.

 

[mariposa]

I think 22 hours is a lot for level 5. Around here, it is between 10-16 hours/week for level 5. My DD does 13 hours a week. They uptrain year round and do a lot of conditioning and strength. There is a gym here that scores really well at compulsories and only does 10 hours/3 days at level 5, but not much uptraining in the level they are in and not very much strength/conditioning. The owner is a current judge and KNOWS the routines and deductions and they work on those little things over and over again. During meet season and the months before they are totally focused on getting all those little details just right.

I would think they have plenty of time with 22 hours to uptrain, do routines and strength. I do think that some kids just seem to have the skills the way that compulsory wants them, but they still should be able to score well. That said, I remember when your DD was a level 4, you were worried about her scores and they were actually good scores, so maybe your expectations are higher? How does the gym do overall? Do they have really high scorers? A gym's philosophy comes into play, too. Many gyms don't focus on every detail of the compulsories, but their girls hold their own, maybe the best, but they do well. But then at optionals, they do really, really well.

To the original question, I don't think that how a gymnast does at the lower levels is a direct indicator of success at the optional levels. I have seen amazing compulsories do just okay at optionals and vice versa. And I have seen girls do okay at compulsories and then just okay at optionals. And of course, girls that have rocked both. It depends on so many things, the kid, the coaching, the gyms focus, etc.

 

[Linsul]

That average amount is normal for this region. If it makes you feel better, I went to the Rising Stars meet last night for the L5+6 session, and I saw some beeeeeeeeyooooootiful floor routines get ravaged by the judges. I can post one of the highest scoring (if not the highest) L5 floor routines of the night as I took video. It was a 9.6, and the gymnast is a 2nd year L5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebm8LipXtxE

With that many hours put in, I'm sure her routines are lovely. With all the other girls putting around the same time though, competition will be STIFF. I wouldn't let middle of the road scores mess with your head since it's the beginning of the season; and because there are many many many repeaters of the level in that age range.

 

[gymnut1]

That routine was just lovely, thanks for sharing.

to the original poster - I think Linsul is right.

If your gym has optionals that score and place well then you should have no worries. They obviously know what they are doing.

I would only worry if she is only training level 5 all those hours with no uptraining and skill development and you have no decent optionals either.

 

[LizzieLac]

22 hours at level 5 is far too extreme in my opinion- when Shawn Johnson worked out about that many training elite.

My question is this: how may hours will they need to put in to be level 8-10??

This just seems wrong for so many reasons (IMO).

 

[mariposa]

I too, think that is a crazy amount of hours for level 5 and for a child her daughters age, but she is in a crazy state that is pretty gym intense. Yes they have other options other than USAG there, but not sure how popular or big the programs are.

I often wonder if burnout rate in TX is more than in other states. They seem to practice way more hours than most other states. Would be interesting to know the stat on that. I see many girls here quit levels 5/6 because of the hours and they range from 10-16 for level 5 and 12-16 for level 6. Our level 7-10 only practice 20 hours a week and we have girls make it to regionals and nationals. And the gym that I said practiced only 10 at level 5 and 12 at level 6, they have many state champs at the compulsory level. Not sure what their optional girls practice, but they have many place at state as well as regionals/nationals. Just seems like overkill. And yes, you see those high scores in TX, but at what cost in the long run?

 

[coachmolly]

I'm fairly certain it doesn't need to be repeated that that is a lot of time in the gym for a level 5! But I guess if that's what all the other gyms in the area are doing yours needs to keep up. However, it IS NOT necessary for a level 5 gymnast. If you think it's too much for your daughter, look for other options. You know her best.
As far as indicators for optional success in a young gymnast, it is SO hard to tell. I have seen so many very talented, high scoring, level 4-6 girls leave the sport before even reaching level 7 because of burn out, injuries, high expectations, or fear issues. It is just such a gamble. But you'll also see on the websites of some elite gymnasts who repeated a level or who didn't win their compulsory level state meets. There are just too many variables in the whole equation. But just because your daughter isn't winning everything in level 5, doesn't mean there is no hope for her!
Like many others have said, at the compulsory levels it is about perfecting the basics. If her basic skills are impeccable, I think her coaches are probably doing their job.

 

[Linsul]

That routine was just lovely, thanks for sharing.

to the original poster - I think Linsul is right.

If your gym has optionals that score and place well then you should have no worries. They obviously know what they are doing.

I would only worry if she is only training level 5 all those hours with no uptraining and skill development and you have no decent optionals either.

Thanks!! Luisa was a star, the photographers were following her every move. A couple other kids too, those photogs know whats up. I love the 'bring it' look on her face, how it contrasts with elegant and sure movement. She's a performer that one! That routine would've been a 9.8-9.9 easy in the region I was at before. It got me thinking that dance and performance qualities perhaps aren't something fully taught, more realized.


I agree with everyone that 22ish hours isn't necessary for level 5. The workout itself is to be considered though. Is it constant high physical stress, or is a lot of time spent on fundamentals, routines they already know, stretching, and possibly independent conditioning from a list? If the uptraining and harder stuff is weighed against the time spent doing other more familiar and less stressful things it's a bit more understandable.

 

[dancengym]

My two cents (not a pro in any way): The red flags are with those many hours are the coaches spending enough time with the girls to correct their form and nit pick? If your goal and your dd is to go far, I'd start digging into how the other gymnasts at your gym have done in the past. Also, could the 22 hours a week be too much for your dd to handle that she is getting too tired and unable to grasp or do anymore anything that is being taught. It is like reading a book at the end of a very hectic day, I keep reading the page over and over again without comprehending anything. I'd pesonally request to cut down the hours and see how that affects her performance.

My dd did only 9 hrs at L4 and 12 hrs at L5. She is now L6 and will be doing 15 hrs with optional open practices on Saturdays. I felt the L4 and maybe even L5 hours could have used a little more hours. But she did pretty well. I felt at the beginning the $350.00 for 9 hours at L4 and 12 hours at L5, was a little high. But I also reminded myself, this may be good because the burn out factor may be less. Now that we will be practicing 15 hrs a week (3 hours, M-F), is alot. But I think that is a good number of hours.

 

[gymcoach34]

In my opinion, a lot of times kids that burnout/ quit is when they feel like they are missing out of too many non-gym activities, then they have an issue at the gym (bad meet, fear, issue w/ the coach, parents pushing-whatever) and the grass seems greener and life seems easier w/ out gym.

22 hrs is crazy for just straight L5. I do have some kids that do similar at that age bc of TOPs (about 20), but I tell their parents to schedule little activities, parties, playdates when they are not at the gym. That way, it helps them feel like they are not missing so much.

 

[dancengym]

In my opinion, a lot of times kids that burnout/ quit is when they feel like they are missing out of too many non-gym activities, then they have an issue at the gym (bad meet, fear, issue w/ the coach, parents pushing-whatever) and the grass seems greener and life seems easier w/ out gym.

22 hrs is crazy for just straight L5. I do have some kids that do similar at that age bc of TOPs (about 20), but I tell their parents to schedule little activities, parties, playdates when they are not at the gym. That way, it helps them feel like they are not missing so much.

Gymcoach34, I thought burnout was from just working too hard constantly, long hours, etc. I does make sense though that missing out is a close relative. hmmmmm.

Also, my dd is only doing the same hours as her other Level 6 and she is training to go to national testing. She does tops during part of her practice. Which is a worry because I wonder which one is going to give-tops or her Level 6 competition season. She obviously is not practicing as many hours as other tops qualifiers and she is also not practicing as many hours as her other teammates doings her level 6 routine. Any thoughts?