Coaches MAG Front Layout Vault

[Art]

So, I know this is one amongst a number of front layout threads but I still need help. I just did a bit of searching through the forum and came across a few interesting discussions but not sure they really cover my viewpoint.

So I'm a MAG coach here in NZ, and got two level 3 boys moving up to level 4. Level 3 vault is an underswing front tuck. Level 4 is an underswing front layout. the underswing approach is mentioned in the technical details.

Now....First of all I'd like to check my understanding here. A few people I know understand this the same as I do, and the rest seemingly never really focused on the difference.

Punch jump - is an under arm swing action that takes place before the feet strike the beat board/contact point on floor, meaning that the arms are at the ears when they hit the beat board/floor.
Stretch jump / underswing - is where the under arm swing action takes place when/as the feet make contact with the beat board/floor and pulls you up as you lift. So the arms start behind on first contact then reach your ears as you travel up. (Using the weight of your arms to pull higher for the first moment as your feet stop touching the board/floor.)

Is that correct? Thats always been my understanding of it. Stretch jump/underswing take off, and the punch jump takeoff.

The way I understand it the boys need to use the stretch jump technique for these vaults, and after reading a poll on here, most of you seem to think when hitting the beat board the arms are already halfway up? sorta a mix between the punch and stretch jump?

Second problem of mine is the arm action used through the actual layout.
Been reading here about the tight arch vs the hollow technique, but they all seemed to be talking about floor, and nothing was mentioned about the entry with an underswing or a punch.

Technique 1.
When I learned front layouts I always did them like a reverse of a back layout. Arms starting at the ears, driving down to the hips with a slight dish.

Then there seems to be a small bit of confusion because the tight arch layout and the front whip seems to be the same thing to some on here from what I read and I believe they are separate skills?
Technique 2.
Start with arms at the ears, start with an initial dish (or should there be no initial dish?), then immediately drive the heels back and arms pull slightly forwards and towards horizontal. Same as the technique for whips.
This is the technique that some teach low and call them layouts when I think they are front whips.

From all the reading I think I picked up that Technique 1 is good for twists, and technique 2 good for continuing forwards tumbling........... so what do I teach the boys to do it on vault!? Both? And which arm action?
I personally struggle to do a front layout unless I use a punch jump followed with technique 1 that I described.

Really sorry this is so long winded but I hope that this is explained thoroughly so that I wont need to have any confusion anymore.

Thanks!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

sorry, but i'm confused because i can't figure out if you're talking about vaulting off the table, or tumbling and how you take off a floor/board. or how you take off the board for a front layout off the table. clear?

 

[Art]

Well its only level 4. Not sure theyd be capable of a front layout using a vaulting table. infact I don't think Ive ever seen it done. Would be interesting, only seen it into a tuck.

So no vaulting table. Just how it would bee done with a beat board and a 30cm mat.

Id also be interested to know what people think is best for floor with the punch vs underswing though.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

underswing punch is the most effective. makes it easy to perform step outs.

 

[Art]

underswing punch is the most effective. makes it easy to perform step outs.

Okay.... could you explain why? I've never really seen anyone step out of a layout. Only seen it out of tucks.

Also which technique during the salto technique 1 or 2 that I listed?

Anyway..... don't need to step out for vault and thats the main thing I'm wanting to know for. Like I explained already, vault, running, hit the beatboard and landing on a 30cm mat. No vaulting table.


Looks like I need to teach them both techniques (technique 1 and 2), but which to teach first for this vault?

 

[Aussie_coach]

This is similar to our MAG Vaults. In level 3 they do a front tuck to 1 crash mat and bonus is going to two crash mats. In level 4 they do a front tuck to two crash mats and the bonus vault is a front layout to one crash mat and in level 5 they do a front layout to 1 crash mat and bonus is a layout to two crash mats. Then at level 6 the vault table is introduced for the front handspring. When is the vault table introduced in NZ MAG?

Anyway the arm swing is meant to be a preparation for the correct underarm technique for the vault table, as essentially a front handspring vault is a layout over the vault table with push off. Judging wise the timing of the underarm swing action is not actually judged (I believe NZ is the same as Aus) there is room for individual timing differences, the main scoring is based on the fact that the underarm action is present. There is just one deduction taken if there is no underarm action.

Your expectations for the vault table is supposed to reflect your expectations for the layout.

I don't push the arm swing on the layout or the tuck if the boys aren't ready for it. Sometimes if their timing is off or if they are thinking about it the wrong way its more damaging to the vault than beneficial, I do find that it does not affect their ability to underarm swing properly when you put a vault table in front of them.

 

[Art]

Thanks for your input .

The whole under swing timing between a punch jump and stretch jump still seems to confuse me a bit as I have seen elite athletes use both, though most appear to use what I consider the underswing, not the punch.

Anyway.

Our level 3 is front tuck traveling min of 1 meter. L4 is layout, also min of 1 meter. L5 is where the handspring over the table is introduced. Min of 1 meter is required here as well, Then L6 is the same, except they get a bonus if they travel 2 meters.

I think our programmes are similar because NZ adapts our manual from the Aussy one I think. Not sure.

So Aussie_coach, considering you say the layout technique should be similar to the handspring, does that mean that the arm technique during the layout should be going from underswing, to ears, then driving next to the hips (technique 1)?
I'm considering teaching them the dish/hollow (technique 1) for vault, then the arch with arms going out to the side (technique 2) for floor.

That sound about right? When do you start to introduce front layouts on floor for training?

I don't want to try guessing from my own training as the coaching I got was a bit all over the place.

 

[CoachTodd]

I look at the timing of the arm swing as follows:
During the hurdle do the arm circle.
When making contact with the board, the arms are low but on their way up. Shoulders are behind the feet. The angle of impact on the board will cause the rotation of the layout.
In an ideal situation, the arms will be moving toward the ears during the layout assuming you want this to lead to a front handspring vault. It really doesn't mess up the rotation of the layout, it just feels weird to be flipping one way while your arms are moving the other way.
If you have a bit or a rezi-mat, do a lot of drills and they'll get used to it.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This is similar to our MAG Vaults. In level 3 they do a front tuck to 1 crash mat and bonus is going to two crash mats. In level 4 they do a front tuck to two crash mats and the bonus vault is a front layout to one crash mat and in level 5 they do a front layout to 1 crash mat and bonus is a layout to two crash mats. Then at level 6 the vault table is introduced for the front handspring. When is the vault table introduced in NZ MAG?

Anyway the arm swing is meant to be a preparation for the correct underarm technique for the vault table, as essentially a front handspring vault is a layout over the vault table with push off. Judging wise the timing of the underarm swing action is not actually judged (I believe NZ is the same as Aus) there is room for individual timing differences, the main scoring is based on the fact that the underarm action is present. There is just one deduction taken if there is no underarm action.

Your expectations for the vault table is supposed to reflect your expectations for the layout.

I don't push the arm swing on the layout or the tuck if the boys aren't ready for it. Sometimes if their timing is off or if they are thinking about it the wrong way its more damaging to the vault than beneficial, I do find that it does not affect their ability to underarm swing properly when you put a vault table in front of them.

fantastic explanation. nothing more to say.

 

[Art]

I understand and can agree with the first part of you post.
It makes sense to me that when making contact with the board, the arms are low but on their way up. Thats the underswing. But the second part...

In an ideal situation, the arms will be moving toward the ears during the layout assuming you want this to lead to a front handspring vault. It really doesn't mess up the rotation of the layout, it just feels weird to be flipping one way while your arms are moving the other way.

How can this not affect the rotation? When I do front layouts myself I have to drive my arms down. The weight and force from going from my ears to my hips is what helps me rotate around.
What you describing sounds like a handspring just without the hands touching a vaulting table. I might give it a try but that sounds like the hardest way to try rotate for a layout to me.

 

[CoachTodd]

On vault, the rotation comes from the heel drive not from a chest drop. Getting the arms to move toward the ears while flipping is where the block off thee table comes from. I know it is possible for the arm movement to effect the rotation, but only if you are letting it cause the body to arch from the shoulders down instead of from the heels up.

 

[BlairBob]

An arched front layout, "front whip", can be used a progression towards the straight/hollow front layout or as an accelerator into a connected front tumbling pass.

As others have said, they should be hitting the boards with their hands and arms low roughly right by their hips and rising up. Generally, we were only teaching the kids to allow their arms to rise as high as their chest/horizontal but if they had to show a stretched position in the air, there you go.