WAG Mill circle

[Orangesoda]

I sent another thread off on a tangent so I thought I'd continue my questions here.

Why don't coaches like the mill circle? (Is it also called a stride circle or is that something different?)

I know why I don't like it. I've been watching my kid try to wrap her chin around the top of the bar for an eternity trying to make it around. She clearly doesn't trust the straight-arm, get-your-wrists-back-on-the-top-of-the-bar approach.

Will it ever end!?

 

[lhmom]

It will end once she moves up to level 4. I think most hate it because it's a skill that is not needed past level 3. Most seem to think it's a waste of time learning it.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

I sent another thread off on a tangent so I thought I'd continue my questions here.

Why don't coaches like the mill circle? (Is it also called a stride circle or is that something different?)

I know why I don't like it. I've been watching my kid try to wrap her chin around the top of the bar for an eternity trying to make it around. She clearly doesn't trust the straight-arm, get-your-wrists-back-on-the-top-of-the-bar approach.

Will it ever end!?

I think that is one advantage to competing level 2. By the time they get to level 3, they have had plenty of time to master it. My dd's level 2 team were pretty hit and miss on it, but it was pretty rare in level 3 to miss it. Not saying it didn't happen, but most had them down by the end of the level 3 season. Just in time to never compete them again, right? lol. I think my dd is one of the few that actually misses it. Bars is her favorite event and she actually really liked, and did well with, the shoot through and mill circle in level 3. Now, level 2 was a different story for her. She still liked it, but something always went wrong during one of the skills and she definitely wasn't winning in level 2 on bars.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Again, not required.

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Junior Olympics/compulsory/illustratedroutines_feb14.pdf

Our gym doesn't do it for level 2, they did for level 3. Very happy to say good bye to it.

 

[MeetDirector]

An absolutely useless skill. Show me what level 10 skill traces its roots to a mill circle. Thank goodness my dd started competing at old Lvl 5 and all we had to worry about was the Kip (which is used forever from that point forward). Mill circles belong on the playground and not in JO compulsory routines.

 

[dmbgymnast]

I've seen defense in which it teaches a reverse grip early on, but there isn't much point to that if they don't continue it past level 3 until late optionals.

 

[skschlag]

Again, not required.

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Junior Olympics/compulsory/illustratedroutines_feb14.pdf

Our gym doesn't do it for level 2, they did for level 3. Very happy to say good bye to it.

so does your gym do the basket instead?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Yes basket for L2, mill circle for L3

That is how most gyms do it around here.

 

[fuzi]

I've seen defense in which it teaches a reverse grip early on, but there isn't much point to that if they don't continue it past level 3 until late optionals.

Kelli Hill (coach of Dominique Dawes, Elise Ray, and Courtney Kupets, among others) insists that more than teaching reverse group, the mill circle is a skill for teaching tension on the bar. It's for teaching gymnasts to push on the bar. Take her explanation or leave it.

 

[raenndrops]

I think that is one advantage to competing level 2. By the time they get to level 3, they have had plenty of time to master it.

My YG competed Old L4 for 2 years and New L3 for 1 year... She NEVER mastered the mill circle - kinda blows the "advantage to competing L2" theory, lol, since she competed the dreaded mill circle for 3 years and never once got it. So glad to be done with it!

 

[suebee]

I think that is one advantage to competing level 2. By the time they get to level 3, they have had plenty of time to master it. My dd's level 2 team were pretty hit and miss on it, but it was pretty rare in level 3 to miss it. Not saying it didn't happen, but most had them down by the end of the level 3 season. Just in time to never compete them again, right? lol. I think my dd is one of the few that actually misses it. Bars is her favorite event and she actually really liked, and did well with, the shoot through and mill circle in level 3. Now, level 2 was a different story for her. She still liked it, but something always went wrong during one of the skills and she definitely wasn't winning in level 2 on bars.

My dd also competed L2 and L3, and unfortunately, her mill circle is just as hit or miss as it was in L3 as in L2. Luckily, she usually made it at meets, in both L2 and L3, but it's always the skill that I know she could easily miss at any time, and I would not at all be surprised for her to miss it.

I've only seen 1 team doing the basket drop in L2. I didn't know how it was supposed to look, but it did not look anything like the video that was posted in the other thread.

 

[dmbgymnast]

Kelli Hill (coach of Dominique Dawes, Elise Ray, and Courtney Kupets, among others) insists that more than teaching reverse group, the mill circle is a skill for teaching tension on the bar. It's for teaching gymnasts to push on the bar. Take her explanation or leave it.

...leaving it

 

[mom2newgymnast]

My dd also competed L2 and L3, and unfortunately, her mill circle is just as hit or miss as it was in L3 as in L2. Luckily, she usually made it at meets, in both L2 and L3, but it's always the skill that I know she could easily miss at any time, and I would not at all be surprised for her to miss it.

I've only seen 1 team doing the basket drop in L2. I didn't know how it was supposed to look, but it did not look anything like the video that was posted in the other thread.

My YG competed Old L4 for 2 years and New L3 for 1 year... She NEVER mastered the mill circle - kinda blows the "advantage to competing L2" theory, lol, since she competed the dreaded mill circle for 3 years and never once got it. So glad to be done with it!

Oh well, I guess I was wrong. I do think that her level 3 team was much,much better at them then when they were in level 2 and I don't think the extra year (including competition season) of practicing them hurt. But I agree that, based on what I have read here, it does seem to be a useless skill that many struggle with even though it doesn't lead anywhere.

 

[gymdog]

Kelli Hill (coach of Dominique Dawes, Elise Ray, and Courtney Kupets, among others) insists that more than teaching reverse group, the mill circle is a skill for teaching tension on the bar. It's for teaching gymnasts to push on the bar. Take her explanation or leave it.

Agree. To do it right they have to lock their arms and primarily keep support on them. I really don't care one way or another about a mill circle because there's not a lot else they can do on the bar in these levels. The parents who disagree should get a spot on the USAG compulsory committee and propose an alternate routine. The goal of the compulsory program is to teach "a library of movement" to build on. I guess they could have the kids do a pullover, cast back hip circle, underswing to avoid any skills you guys are deeming useless, but that seems equally pointless to me. They would never get use to the kind of endurance and body control they need to get better at bars. If the coach only teaches mill circles and not basic swings, backward circles, and cast handstands, that is a separate problem that likely won't be helped for those gyms by a different routine. The reason the mill circle has survived the chopping block for generations is that no one has come up with a great alternative. So we have it at least until 2021.

 

[Sasha]

The parents who disagree should get a spot on the USAG compulsory committee and propose an alternate routine. The goal of the compulsory program is to teach "a library of movement" to build on. I guess they could have the kids do a pullover, cast back hip circle, underswing to avoid any skills you guys are deeming useless, but that seems equally pointless to me. They would never get use to the kind of endurance and body control they need to get better at bars.

I know boys high bar is different (in multiple ways), but they don't ever do a mill circle and somehow survive to get to optionals, as do girls/gyms who bypass L3 and start with L4. I like what Boys Level 5 does - they 'require' a kip in the routines, but as many kids are not yet strong enough to master it, they are minimally deducted for missing. That way it 'trying it' is encouraged (minimal risk), and making it is of course rewarded. But a lot of boys who don't have a kip still compete 5 with reasonable success.

My problem with the mill circle is the vast time spent mastering it (months on end) when that time could have been spent on kip conditioning/drills. I see these talented littles with beautiful everything else out there struggling away with learning the mill. Then they get it, have a great L3 season, but now are no where close to kip for L4 because they did little or no drills for kip. Though my own kid picked up the mill easily and actually had her kips in L3, I still think mill was a net waste.

What do other countries outside the US do for the early compulsory levels on bars? Are they mill-circling or something else....?

 

[wordsmith]

An absolutely useless skill. Show me what level 10 skill traces its roots to a mill circle.

It seems parents hate it as much as many of us coaches. But I wouldn't call it a totally useless skill (as mentioned by fuzi and gymdog).

It's the one skill where having their hands in reverse grip is introduced early on- which bears some relationship to front giants....inside Endo stalders....It teaches them how to circle forward around the bar and shift the wrists back on top.

I'm not endorsing the skill, mind you; but I do understand some of the whys with it being taught as a developmental skill.

As much as many hate the stride circle, I think even worse might be the front hip circle.

I did kind of like it though in the old level 5 out of the kip, as it encouraged finishing the kip leaning over the bar. Flowed nicely when done well; but a pain in the butt skill for those who could not master it. Of course in current level 3, there is the option of connecting a glide kip into the front hip circle. That to me makes the front hip circle useful. By itself from a dead support? Meh.

Incidentally, a few years ago I filmed some of the Forster-Resnick bar boot camp (first year they had it). Here's what Neil Resnick said in regards to the mill circle in compulsories for all the haters :

 

[wordsmith]

By itself from a dead support? Meh.

Ya know? To sorta play devil's advocate with myself, as I think about it....

I had one kid start making her cast to handstands because of the front hip circle. She was just kind of messing around one day with it, and said, "Hey coach, watch this", and showed me a front hip circle cast to handstand/handspring over to her feet. The front hip circle helped her generate power into her cast.

 

[gymdog]

I know boys high bar is different (in multiple ways), but they don't ever do a mill circle and somehow survive to get to optionals

You're right - it's a totally different event. I'm not really sure where to go with this comparison, but I have also coached boys level 4. Bar work very questionable for several reasons, one being physical...I'm not going to elaborate on that but you get the picture.

Boys level 4 just doing back hip circles is usually way more dodgy than the average girls level 3 group.

My problem with the mill circle is the vast time spent mastering it (months on end) when that time could have been spent on kip conditioning/drills.

That's a coaching problem, I'm not sure coaches who don't know how to make a plan and coach the average child to the next level after a season can be fixed by just changing the routines. Do we put kip drills in the routine? What? The goal of the compulsory committee on bars in this level is to have a routine with multiple skills that requires no spotting, is safe for a child as young as 6 and novice level gymnasts (so going to the high bar is basically out) and flow/breadth of movement. So yeah, we could have the kids cast and do like five back hip circles in a row, but what is that teaching? And if you do that then some coaches will just be teaching back hip circles anyway.

Many years ago we had the kip in old level 4 and if you did it in most states, you had a 10 SV while if you did the pullover you had a 9.5 or 9.0 SV. So for all of you that hated level 3, think about if your kid did a kip or not, and if not, think about how much you'd like it if she started at a 9 every meet...Aaaand that's exactly why we don't have that anymore with this generation especially. Some coaches still couldn't teach the kip in that timeframe and it was decided that when a skill isn't required for a level compulsory level, kids shouldn't be penalized for not doing it. And even with a HUGE incentive to do it, most kids couldn't/didn't. Granted compulsories was less competitive then. But since we've already gone down that road we pretty much know what it will be like if we require the kip for level 3...it will keep a lot of kids off team or they'll all just score low and we'd be back to square one anyway, why not just not require it.

What do other countries outside the US do for the early compulsory levels on bars? Are they mill-circling or something else....?

With all due respect, most other countries don't offer remotely the same gymnastics program or options as the US. The goal of USA Gymnastics is to provide a platform where every child can participate in gymnastics at he right level for them. That might be Jen Bricker as a tramp/tumbling champion (she has no legs), a child with special needs participating in a class, or the dozens of kids for whom nailing a mill circle will be one of the high points of their career. The position of USA gymnastics is that if a kid is so advanced that a mill circle is beneath her and her coaches want to accelerate the training, there are options to do so (start in level 4, TOPS training, Xcel, etc). for everyone else? The process and physical training involved in learning a mill circle is the same process as anything else in gymnastics. They get stronger using different muscles that they don't use in the back hip circle. They learn to work through frustration. They build synapses in their brains (teaches timing and body awareness). They stay on the bar longer and get better. Those things are "the point."

Contrary to what this post might make you believe, I don't really care if the mill circle stays or goes. But the truth is its no more pointless than a back hip circle. Can you do any advanced circling skill using a back hip circle technique? No. Either way, when they get more advanced, they have to adjust their technique and use more advanced techniques. If in 2022 we start doing a routine without mill circles in level 3, I'll welcome it. And I'll still teach mill circles. Because it's fun, and there's not a lot else they can do in the novice stage.

 

[ROMfan]

I find the debate / frustration over the mill circle surprising in its intensity. When I did compulsory bars (back in the 80s), the mill circle was not just a mill circle. It was mill circle-let go with one arm and catch the high bar on the way up. And that was at the low level routine (class IV, but approx equivalent to the level 3 bars. Maybe level 4. But you didn't need a kip or front hip circle til the next class)

Anyway, I never found it all that difficult to just mill circle around. But the letting go with one arm to grab the high bar required timing and was a little scary at that level! But that is what makes me chuckle every time I hear someone complaining. I just kind of think, oh--if you had to do it like back then...

That said though, once I got the hang of it , it felt pretty cool to whip around and catch

 

[profmom]

Believe it or not, DS probably has a better mill circle than DD -- because his coach did use them a bit as a training device when they were earlier in. They never got them super clean, but they did work them some. I remember him doing some at open gym one day kind of as a joke and asked him how the heck he knew how to do it.

Most of his training group was competing at least one set of giants on hi bar at L6 and all the guys (after one year of L6) now have both sets of giants, so maybe there is something to the "pressure on the bar" thing. Or maybe it's just their coach's constant irritable shouting of those words!