Parents NY Times article about losing

[beamer]

Let's petition USAG to put a stop to the madness!

I will never forget a Chicago Style meet a few years ago. DD's L5 group competed in the last session of the day. Awards -- often going out 20 places -- lasted almost as long as the session. The girls were stumbling, crying zombies at the end. Love Chicago and this really well-run, fun meet. But, man, the award ceremony? It scarred me for life.

I met another scarred mother in the bathroom who looked at me, bleary-eyed, and said, "Awards: first, second, third -- bam! Go home."

And I concur. Enough of this "you're great" (20th place) and "you're greatest" (1st). The girls all get the reality of the awards situation. I think most of them would rather not, as sportsmommy points out, stand up for 20th place, or even 9th place...

 

[Natalia]

We are the same as Bog, but our girls do a few extra meets - we run our own invitational, and hit a travel meet in the US. Some of the girls if in national or whatever, have additional meets if they qualify.

But yes, medals for 1-3, ribbons for 4-8, and nothing for kids beyond that (perhaps a small welcome gift, but then sometimes not). I am happy with that - but admittedly one of DD's friends last year was crushed when all the other kids in her age group/level received at least one medal or ribbon, and she none - for the entire year. Those kids have to find something else to motivate them, intrinsic satisfaction, maybe the loss drives them to work harder in training, etc. That is the reality of competition to me - not everyone wins. If that was the case, it is just a participation showcase.

DD will start her competition "career" as she puts it this fall. She recognizes she won't necessarily win - and the stakes are quite high - her first meet being a qualifier to a national meet. Top 6, or you don't qualify. So it'll be a quick and dirty learning process for her!

Same thing here,small trophy for first place ,medal for second and third place ,rest of you :have a nice day.

DD first meet this year is also a qualifier for a national meet,Top 8 or you're out.Gulp

 

[2littlegymnasts]

The only time I got upset at a meet that did not place 100% was when we competed against those gyms that "stack the deck" and my child's 9.7 or 37 all around score does not even place.

 

[vagymmomma]

I think it might depend somewhat on the age and level. I recall last year watching some of the young level 3 girls get medals at a meet and the HUGE smiles on their faces (and those of their parents). That shiny 10th place medal clearly meant so much to them. Compare that to the teen rolling her eyes because she knows she didn't have a great competition and still somehow placed.

The medal for all places is a bit much, but I think the larger medal groups (say 40 -50%) keep the spirit going for some girls. Some girls just aren't built for optionals or take a while to hit their stride, so maybe it gives them a little boost on the ride up. It seems like the long term damage is nil, so other than the cost is there a huge downside?

 

[maryRS]

I didn't read the entire article, but I have to say, in other sports, once you get past the young rec level, I don't see participation trophies being awarded. Maybe we've escaped it? My gymnast who is 13 and the youngest has played soccer and field hockey at rec and travel level and once she was past the rec level (7-8ish) she did not get trophies for participation. Even the club banquet was reserved for teams that won their division. Now I will go read the article

 

[maryRS]

Ok, more, I guess I see it both ways. While I stated above my kids did not really get trophies much beyond the rec level of their sport unless they won, their team won etc., we still have amassed quite a collection of trophies and medals (over 200) not including gymnastic stuff. Those 200 are spread over 4 kids, and my oldest is in college and still playing. My 13 year old gymnast daughter has a room full of medals ribbons and trophies just from gymnastics, so I don't know. I guess I don't see a problem with giving a 6 year old a trophy at the end of the season for competing in baseball or soccer. It's one trophy for that sport/season, not really a big deal. It really does become more competitive, and sometimes I would love to go back to the days of a team full of kids running on the field having not a clue, and having a blast, and getting a trophy for it!
I have to admit I find some gymnastic award sessions to be ridiculously long

 

[Flossyduck]

"It seems like the long term damage is nil, so other than the cost is there a huge downside?"

Sure, I can't see damage to the girls who are in the top 50% who medal, but actually I think it does make it much worse for those who don't. That must be demoralising no?

I like that here, you have to finish top 3 to medal. Occasionally certificates to six places, but not often. I've seen dd stand there in line and not medal enough times to know it's not hard to overcome any disappointment when only 3 awards are given out. She's never alone from her club in being in that position. Margins are small so if you missed out on top 3 you could still have done well and she knows that, and plenty of others weren't top three either. But if I had to sit and watch her miss out of top half - well that would be much worse.

 

[MaryA]

I will never forget a Chicago Style meet a few years ago. DD's L5 group competed in the last session of the day. Awards -- often going out 20 places -- lasted almost as long as the session. The girls were stumbling, crying zombies at the end. Love Chicago and this really well-run, fun meet. But, man, the award ceremony? It scarred me for life.

Yes, I admit that it was Chicago Style I was thinking of when I was talking about going out 22 places. And the guy who was doing the announcing was AWFUL. I mean, I get it... he was a volunteer... a college-age guy so maybe a young coach or someone's big brother or something, so I mean him no disrespect. But this was level 7. Everybody in that room knew how awards work. But every time there was a tie (and when you're going out 22 places, there are A LOT of ties), he would explain, "Ok, there was a 3 way tie for 20th place, so we decide the tie by the highest AA score. So 20th place receiving 22nd place is..." It took FOREVER. But it was an awesome meet and I would go again in a heartbeat.

 

[Committed]

I'm all for 100% get medals for AA, but only top 3 for each apparatus. Then again, my kid is still little and she values all of her trophies and medals the same. No, she loves her BIGGEST trophy even though it was one she "won" at kindergarten. It's a men's soccer trophy.

 

[iwannacoach]

I think giving ribbons, medals, or other awards to 50% of the competitors does more harm than good, and contradicts the entire purpose of going that deep into the results. I know every child is happier when they get a medal, but I also doubt they need to medal to feel a sense of accomplishment. The flip side to the coin is that it creates a division between the 50% who get a medal and the other 50% who don't. Nothing says you failed more loudly than not getting a medal when so many, almost everybody, got one.

Really, in a group of 30 with four events and the all-around, each being awarded down to 15th place, there would be 75 medals/ribbons up for grabs. Assuming some kids have better events than others, the awards get spread around a little so it's not just the top 15 all-around kids walking off with the goods.

So what's my point? I can't see giving so many awards with the intention of lifting the kids' spirits and getting them exited about the sport, only to crush the spirit of the six or seven kids who have to watch all of the others, almost every kid at the meet, get at least one ribbon, while they sit there completely ribbonless. It gets even worse when every kid on a team gets an award, except for the one kid who can't even look at anybody.

It happens, and it's wrong. I'd rather see 6-8 for a group that size..... at least for the upper levels of compulsories and above. The younger and newer kids may not notice this stuff, but the older kids who've been around for a while see what's going on.

It's a lot easier to accept not getting a medal or ribbon when it takes a great routine to get one..... kinda like so what, we aren't all superhuman.

 

[flippingtogether]

I think giving ribbons, medals, or other awards to 50% of the competitors does more harm than good, and contradicts the entire purpose of going that deep into the results. I know every child is happier when they get a medal, but I also doubt they need to medal to feel a sense of accomplishment. The flip side to the coin is that it creates a division between the 50% who get a medal and the other 50% who don't. Nothing says you failed more loudly than not getting a medal when so many, almost everybody, got one.

This is wonderfully articulated - spot on where the kids not in the top 50% feel bad. The kids consistently not in the top 50% are really singled out.

This seems to be an opportunity for gymnastics to look to other sports to benchmark how to best do awards. Going back to the swim meet comparison, where in our region there are 6 ribbon placings only per event (and likely 30-40 kids per event), kids know they will very likely go home empty handed. So the focus is on improving personal times meet to meet (and also on not getting disqualified by doing a stroke illegally .... the equivalent of no-falls in gymnastics, I'd say).
And the coaches are there to remind the kids of improvements and keep everyone jazzed up and excited to try again, even if the likelihood of awards is low.

 

[Fliptwisttumble]

After reading the posts here, I asked my 9 year old, who is only this fall going to head to a meet

 

[Fliptwisttumble]

Oops, sorry.

After reading the posts here, I asked my 9 year old, who is only this fall going to head to a meet where scores and awards will be given..... If they gave a medal or ribbon to everyone, and you came in last, and they called you up, how would you feel? Would you be happy to get your ribbon? The answer wasn't even a hesitation. She said.... I wouldn't go up mommy. Everyone would know I came in last. If that ever happens, please don't make me go up. I said now what if there were 22 girls and the top half got a ribbon? Answer: well I'd go but it wouldn't mean much to me - who wants to come in 11th and why should you be rewarded for that?

So when we go to Chicago Style this winter, the proof will be in the pudding for her as to how she actually deals with it!

 

[rjb123]

I am really conflicted about this. On one hand I totally agree that it is SOOOO painful as a parent to sit there and watch the kids in the bottom 50% get nothing, but on the other hand it IS nice that kids beyond 1-3 get awards. In our situation, there are three kids who just DOMINATE my DD's level. They have repeated the old level once, and then trained significantly "up" but ended up staying at the same level as their old group. Truly, it is like taking candy from a baby for them- there simply is NO competition for them- the other kids on their team and other teams don't stand a chance in heck. So, getting fourth, fifth etc is a BIG deal and is hard won. But then, you see these kids who sitting there with nothing and it just hurts my heart to see the look on their faces. Truly. I was watching awards for a level my DD was not even in, and I almost cried to see "the look" on a little girl's face. It was that "everyone else got x,y,z and I did nothing." That is a tough thing for a little kid to sit through.
To be honest, my mom and I were talking about how much BETTER it was for me in ice skating. The results were posted in a certain location, you went and saw them, awards were top 3, maybe four, and only those went to the awards (held at a later time). There was none of this "everyone sitting around watching the same girls win it all" thing, because you didn't have to sit there and watch it. If you had a rough day, a rough meet, you got to leave and not prolong it.

 

[vagymmomma]

I seem to be the lone voice who's not terribly bothered by the 40 - 50% medals (especially going to younger gymnasts). Again, I absolutely hate the AA medals to every girl because I think that points a very negative finger at those on the lower end. I think the reality is that some girls are just not built for gymnastics. Maybe the ones in the lower 50% who feel bad will learn sooner that they should look somewhere else if they want to excel. Is that overly harsh? It sounds terrible when I read it back, but I'm trying to be a realist as well. I think the 40 - 50% keeps the gymnasts with potential but may be slow starters in the sport. I think it also keeps the ones that are more likely to move to the Excel program as an alternative path. Look at the numbers posted in another recent thread. The drop off from L4 to L10 is crazy high, so a lot of girls will move on whether you award medals or not. I don't think only giving 6 medals will change those numbers. But for the young girls with stars in their eyes, I think those early medals will mean a lot.

 

[profmom]

I seem to be the lone voice who's not terribly bothered by the 40 - 50% medals (especially going to younger gymnasts). Again, I absolutely hate the AA medals to every girl because I think that points a very negative finger at those on the lower end. I think the reality is that some girls are just not built for gymnastics. Maybe the ones in the lower 50% who feel bad will learn sooner that they should look somewhere else if they want to excel. Is that overly harsh? It sounds terrible when I read it back, but I'm trying to be a realist as well. I think the 40 - 50% keeps the gymnasts with potential but may be slow starters in the sport. I think it also keeps the ones that are more likely to move to the Excel program as an alternative path. Look at the numbers posted in another recent thread. The drop off from L4 to L10 is crazy high, so a lot of girls will move on whether you award medals or not. I don't think only giving 6 medals will change those numbers. But for the young girls with stars in their eyes, I think those early medals will mean a lot.

I'm the owner and operator of the girl who has frequently been in the bottom 50%. She had to learn early on that she couldn't rely on medals to keep herself going. She treasures every 7th-10th place medal she's gotten on beam, but I don't think that's what has kept her in the gym. But it's been interesting to me to watch her processing her upcoming second year as an optional gymnast. She's mulled over the possibility of moving up to 8 and knowing she'd pretty much own last place on her team on 2-3 events at every meet versus staying at 7 and having the prospect of finally starting to place on some events. She says she would be fine with moving up, because moving up is enough of its own intrinsic reward. But if she stays at 7, she says she's really going to try not just to place, but to make it on to the podium, and she is going to work toward competing upgrades every step of the way. She has announced that she will be totally fine with either 7 or 8, because either way is a step forward.

Her experiences and framings have been enormously valuable as an example to her little brother, who's had significantly more placement success. As soon as the awards ceremony is over, the medals are stripped off and shoved in the gym bag for mom to retrieve later. Once he tried to give one of his medals to a teammate who hadn't won a medal but who had achieved his own goal (staying on the mushroom for the first time). What matters to him is how he did on the events and whether he did what he wanted to do. I sure hope he keeps this sense of perspective as he moves up to a level where I suspect he won't be coming home with medals from every meet.

I guess what I am saying is that if they are going to make it long-term in this sport, they figure out a way to make whatever medal system they experience work for them. And excelling for me = progressing in the sport.

 

[gymmiemom]

I am old school and wish they only did 1st, 2nd, 3rd for all events and all around. My DD has only competed one season and has so many darn ribbons its ridiculous, they are in a tote under her bed. She treasures her 2 gold medals for AA and her bronze medal for floor at state and they are displayed proudly on her bedroom wall. Bottom line for me is that whether they place top 3, 50% out, or 100% out, the girls know who earned top 3. Even at 6 my DD had it figured out in short order. There is a huge sense of accomplishment if you get to stand on that podium, not so much for a 13th place beam ribbon. At least for my DD. Then the meets where she didn't place in the top 50% she had to go home with the knowledge that she didn't even do well enough to place 15th. I feel so bad for the kids who had to experience that all season long. I think there would be less hurt feelings if they just placed top 3.

Meets are a competition and it drives me crazy when they aren't run that way. I'm the same way with the other sports my children are involved in. Not keeping score at football games until they reach the 5th grade league....seriously kids know how many touchdowns each team got. They might as well keep score!

 

[Muddlethru]

I guess I too don't mind awards going 40-50%. Well I don't enjoy sitting and waiting for awards to be given out to 8 different age groups, 2-3 different levels. But many girls may never get one of the coveted top 3 spots no matter now hard they try. It would be nice if they had a memento of their efforts and time as a gymnast.

 

[emorymom]

This is wonderfully articulated - spot on where the kids not in the top 50% feel bad. The kids consistently not in the top 50% are really singled out.

This seems to be an opportunity for gymnastics to look to other sports to benchmark how to best do awards. Going back to the swim meet comparison, where in our region there are 6 ribbon placings only per event (and likely 30-40 kids per event), kids know they will very likely go home empty handed. So the focus is on improving personal times meet to meet (and also on not getting disqualified by doing a stroke illegally .... the equivalent of no-falls in gymnastics, I'd say).
And the coaches are there to remind the kids of improvements and keep everyone jazzed up and excited to try again, even if the likelihood of awards is low.

At swim meets, age group kids ALWAYS go home empty handed, at least where I am. ALWAYS. What you go home with is your times ... did you get a new best time ... did you DQ anything (fail form requirements) ... did you move into another set of time standards ... did you meet any personal goals? Did you get any state cuts or regional cuts? These are all personal to the athlete, as they should be. They can look on the wall usually 20-40 minutes after an event for the computer printout of the final results. They go up to the coach for coaching before each event, and return to the coach for feedback after each event.
What happens later is that, if they got a ribbon or medal, those QUIETLY show up in the athlete's pool folder days or even weeks later. And that has been true at all three clubs my daughter has swum for. They may ribbon the top 8 or 10 and medal the top 1 or 3 ... but it's not a big deal.*
*Possibly* state cuts will be announced at a practice, or children will be recognized verbally at the next practice for meeting some individual goal or doing something particularly well, or having exceptional sportsmanship.
There's no goodie bags to have to pay for, there's only the kids hanging out between races, getting to race and having a great time the 98% of the time that they are not in the water.
Sit back and imagine if gymnastics quietly changed to the same format.
USA Swimming has 400,000 swimmers.
USA Gymnastics has what, a little less than 100,000 athletes across all disciplines?

*And a typical event at a meet will have 20-80 kids competing; I'd say most events have 40-60.

 

[vagymmomma]

I guess what I am saying is that if they are going to make it long-term in this sport, they figure out a way to make whatever medal system they experience work for them. And excelling for me = progressing in the sport.

I completely agree with this statement. I just don't see the 40 -50% as awards as particularly harmful. Maybe it's because I have a gymnast who fits more in this mold than the podium variety. And don't get me wrong - she had meets last season where she placed in the top 3 scores across ALL age groups, so she's very talented in her best events. But meets make her nervous and she has a tendency to fall when she never would in practice. Did she like not winning a medal at some meets when 50% got them? No, but to her it was an intermediary goal to the podium not long term damage to her psyche. Amazingly she's won 'Most Improved' every year she's been on team. She starts slow, builds skills, and ultimately surprises most folks with how far she comes.

I can see both sides of the argument because awards can be ridiculously long and I despise 100% AA. 50% awards as damaging to gymnasts though? I personally just can't buy it.