Parents Prep Op and Level 6 concerns...please read and comment :)

[Krystan]

But there is not just one path for everyone to follow, and not every gymnast has the same goals.

... and if Prep op, or something else, allows these girls to stay in a sport they love, do it safely and have fun, then I applaud a program like that. I think it's awesome!

I agree! What I am hearing from some posters is that Prep-Op is a "dumbed-down" option, and from others who think it is only okay if it's used as a stepping stone. Where I am, prep-op (or another local league) is a totally separate option from the JO program - there is very little (if any) movement between the two. At many gyms, you can be "too old" for the USAG JO team. They generally won't take anyone older than 8/9 for L4. Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to participate at all? Some families simply cannot afford to pay for the 10+ hours of training required by the regular JO levels. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to participate at all? And what about the kids who want to do gymnastics *and* soccer (or whatever). Does that mean they shouldn't e allowed to participate at all? Luckily they have an option. They may obtain skills slower (less hours per week) and may not have as much invested, and are therefore perhaps not as committed. I think of it as being like "travel soccer" vs. "rec soccer". They both compete, but one is more "for fun", involves less practice and $, and probably won't lead to college/career possibilities. Still, there's a place for both.

That being said, I do think the JO levels are the "gold standard". My daughter desperately wants to compete in our gym's USA team. She started late (9, is now 10), is training with the L5's this summer. If she doesn't get the rest of her L5 skills, she's "too old" to compete L4, so I am very glad that we have the prep-op option for her. Gymnastics is her absolute favorite thing to do, she would go every day if she could, and I would hate to think she wouldn't be allowed to participate simply because of her age/finances/etc. It has nothing to do with "poor work ethic", unwillingness to put in the hours, etc. Broad generalizations make a poor argument.

Anyway, I think there's a place for both!

 

[Sunobo]

When prep-op first started, it was a level used for those girls who completed 6 but didn't have skills for 7 yet or didn't want to commit to the dedication needed for 7 but still wanted to compete. But it has grown to a total program now. i know there are some states in which prep-op is still considered a "lesser program" for those not committed to or not able to handle the compulsory program but in many states, the prep-op program is comparable to compulsory in skill and talent level. It's not used as a lower program - it is used as an alternative (sometimes a supplement as well) to get to the higher levels.

2gymmies: it most definitely takes the same dedication and level of achievement to get to optionals. Prep-ops is NOT optionals - it is prep-to-optionals. The girls who make it to true optionals have to show dedication and talent for several years to reach that point, regardless of if they went the compulsory or prep-op route. Trust me - none of our gymnasts feel they are "in" optionals until they actually get to level7. It is a BIG deal to them to reach that coveted level 7.

Thank you.

This link is a pdf of the National Guidelines from USAG's website. http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/PREP_Optional.pdf

I feel that the prep opt program is a wonderful option for lots of gymnasts. It gives kids of ALL abliities the chance to compete in a sport they enjoy. It really saddens me that many gyms consider the program a less desirable route to compete and those that compete in it are less desirable gymnasts. I applaud all the kids who get out there and compete no matter what league they are in or what level they compete. It takes lots of hard work and dedication to get where you are.

 

[bribri514]

she is certainly not the cookie cutter compulsary gymnast! I am sorry that you feel this way.

I don't know if saying that was necessary either. I went through the USAG levels, prep op wasn't around when I did L5 and L6. I would not consider myself a "cookie cutter compulsary gymnast". Sorry just had to respond to that, it really rubbed me the wrong way as I read all 7 pages of this post.

This whole thing is interesting to me. I came from Region 3 and didn't even think we had prep op until I looked on the USAG site and my state is apparently the only one with a program (oops!). I'm guessing it's fairly new, my gym didn't do it. (There was a local state league called EAGLES that girls who didn't want to compete USAG for whatever reason did). But from looking at it, it's still used as another alternative program to have girls involved in gym, which is great! It is not used as a bridge to get to USAG optionals though. Apparently it's bigger in Virginia but it's not at my niece's gym.

I think we need to clarify something. No one is trying to say prep op is bad or people who don't go the USAG route are lesser. The hesitation comes from girls who WANT to do USAG but are using prep op as a way to avoid compulsories. I see a lot of tension coming from this.

I'm wondering if the states/regions that have very strong Prep Op programs don't have strong local/state alternative leagues? That would make sense to me. I'm wondering if USAG nationalizes Prep Op if that will take away from some of the local leagues (Mason Dixon, EAGLES, I'm sure there's more). But unlike prep op you can't use the local leagues to get around USAG requirements and try to aim for L8-10.

In my opinion, as a gymnast who had to work to get through the levels, I don't understand the mentality that "L 6 judging is hard, I can't get some of the skills, let's circumvent it." Gymnastics is a hard sport. What happens to girls (who do prep op for the reasons I just mentioned, not other reasons) who get to L 7 and realize there's no way to circumvent to the higher levels? Or girls who aren't avoiding the lower levels but get sent in this direction? They miss out on a lot of the values of compulsories. I guess I'm just still having a hard time understanding the whole thing. I think it's a great way to keep girls involved in gym and that's always great! But I just don't know about using it instead of L 4-6 then going into the JO optionals program.

As for some of the other reasons I've read about prep op, I think they're valid, capitalizing on individual strengths, etc. However, that's why there's optionals. Like I said I say this as a gymnast, and someone who has coached, the reason you have L 4, 5 and 6 is to really get those basics in. It may not be as fun or as successful as doing your own routine with your own strengths, but it's important at that introductory level to really understand the basics. Gymnastics is a sport that has core basics that are very very very important to moving on in skills. You might think something like a back hip circle isn't important but it builds what you need for the upper levels. Also going through compulsories adds the discipline that you need for the higher levels like 9 and 10. Some skills you might not be the absolute best at, but you still have to push yourself and accomplish them. You may think that you have an advantage going through prep op but as someone who actually competed L7-10 and then was with a DI college team, what I learned in compulsories was integral to my gymnastics. The discipline, the skills, the basics, it is all so important. I'm just very wary of seeing prep op used as a way to L 9 and 10 as opposed to an alternative. Call me old fashioned but the basics are so so so important.

I'm not trying to devalue prep op at all, there's some great gymnasts that come through it and it's a great alternative league. But I really think there's a lot of value in the compulsory program, particularly for girls who want to stay involved in the USAG optionals, even if it's not fun or individual.

 

[MaryA]

Bribri, I would agree if it meant that they could skip level 6 (or whatever) all together, but the bottom line is that they still have to compete a level 6 meet and get a move-up score to move to level 7. Plenty of gyms do only one level 6 meet to score out and move up to level 7 anyway. Many of the gyms around here do a second year of level 5 while uptraining, score out of 6, and then move on to 7. How is doing level 5, doing a year of prep op while uptraining, score out of level 6, and then move to 7 any different, except that they can actually compete those skills that they're training?

 

[bribri514]

To me there's just a difference in quickly pushing L 6 skills out of the way (I saw one poster say they did it in a week or two), for one meet. I realize they need the move up score so the skills have to be there. But that's not the same as the constant training and discipline of doing some of these basic skills over and over. I know it sounds silly, but doing those compulsory skills over and over are very important. Part of me wants to say that everyone trains skills they can't compete. Even in optionals, at L 8, I was training competition ready floor skills that I later used in my L 10 routine. But my bars and beam scores and routine were still in the works (I have a bad habit of completely screwing up my dismount on beam and have the forehead scars to prove it lol) so I had to wait to compete those. The other part of me sees some value in that. I could see maybe taking elements of the prep op program and combining it with compulsories, such as using the necessary skills but allowing creativity with a few other skills. The USAG system is designed to be slow and steady for all around gymnasts. I agree there should be routes for event specialists and other girls who don't want to do USAG. But for girls who want to continue on with USAG in optionals, I just think it's a bad idea to completely trash the compulsory system.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

From my own observation, and my DD's one year participation in Prep Op... MOST of the girls who have decided to pursue this option in my state are not looking to return to the hours and demands of the JO program. I am specifically referring ONLY to the Prep Op. Advanced groups. Now, I'm speaking about the teenaged girls who are also involved in high school classes, etc. I know, I know... I'm sounding like a broken record at this poing. But, these girls have already completed L6 or 7 (and yes, sometimes 8) and have decided that they do not want to continue the JO track. They are NOT looking to move from Prep Op back to JO. With that being said, my own DD (and another teammate) DID miss the JO program. They saw previous teammates continue to gain skills and they honestly just missed it. The low pressure environment of Prep Op. allowed my DD to conquer her tumbling fears (another long story there) and she decided she wanted to try JO again. She successfully completed L7 last year and will be L8 this upcoming season. I honestly don't know how much longer she will be involved in the sport (JO at least)... she will be a junior in high school and will be taking some very difficult classes this year.

I do believe that the basic SKILLS learned in compulsories ARE very important. But I think what's very frustrating with L6 is that judging isn't just based on the actual skills... deductions are taken if the gymnast doesn't stick right to the prescribed text of the routine. Sure, there was the same text w/L4 and 5, but for some reason, it seems to become very frustrating in L6. If the girl has the SKILLS to score out of L6.... and I'm not talking about the bottom of the line mobility score of 31, I think it's prefectly acceptable to move out of L6 and do either prep op or move straight to 7. I"m really not aware of a lot of gyms in my area tho, that do prep op between 6 and 7. If the kids score out of 6, then they usually begin working on 7 right away.

 

[dmytv]

Our state has 2 prep-op divisions(novice and open). Gyms in our area use them as stepping stones to optionals and an alternative for the highschool kids. Our states for compulsories are in the fall and ops are in the spring. The strong level 5's(some are repeat lv 5's) compete prep op in the spring. They compete 6 the next fall then either 7 or prep-op open in the spring again before going to 7. This gives them a good foundation of understanding the "value" of skills as well as trying all the a's and b's etc. The compulsories do offer a good foundation but do not cover all the A/B skills in the JO book. If they just do compulsories there is a big catch-up when it comes time for choreography and knowledge of "other" a/b skills. The jump from 6 to 7 is big in my opinion. Suplementing compusories with TOPs is the best option to produce a good optional gymnast, but TOPs is only good for young gymnasts. Prep-op is a good alternative. Also there is no highschool gymnastics in our area so this is a good place for highschoolers who can't do lv 7 or 8 because the reqs aren't as strict for the prep op lvs.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I don't know if saying that was necessary either. I went through the USAG levels, prep op wasn't around when I did L5 and L6. I would not consider myself a "cookie cutter compulsary gymnast". Sorry just had to respond to that, it really rubbed me the wrong way as I read all 7 pages of this post.

.

I guess what I meant by that statement is that Alex's style does not necessarily fit the compulsary style. With Prep Op she can then play to her strengths like having a more upbeat floor routine that has her "style" rather than the compulsary routines.

I may be wrong and if so please correct me but don't alot of other countries have optional routines from the very beginning? They're are some brilliant gymnasts out there from other countries that were able to still learn the basics and also play up their strengths at the same time.

 

[bribri514]

I guess what I meant by that statement is that Alex's style does not necessarily fit the compulsary style. With Prep Op she can then play to her strengths like having a more upbeat floor routine that has her "style" rather than the compulsary routines.

I may be wrong and if so please correct me but don't alot of other countries have optional routines from the very beginning? They're are some brilliant gymnasts out there from other countries that were able to still learn the basics and also play up their strengths at the same time.

It's okay! I tried to read it a different way, I just couldn't. Sorry. Some posters feel like their daughters are being attacked for doing prep op (which I don't think is the case!) It's been difficult to read this and not feel somewhat slighted as a gymnast for going through the compulsory system. I'm not trying to take it personal but it is kind of hard coming from the other side!

In Canada they do, I'm not familiar with any other country's youth systems to be honest. Like I mentioned before there might be some value from integrating some of what makes prep op appealing with what is valuable about the existing USAG compulsory levels (the basics, the discipline, the pushing through to obtain a variety of skills regardless of individual talent, etc.)

 

[Billy]

I just remembered one more comment from previous HC/O about why she does prep op instead of compulsories. She felt that a lot of time was spent perfecting the poses and such in the compulsory routines, time that would be better spent working on the skills. She felt like a lot of time was wasted making sure this toe is here and that hand is here for this beam pose. She really felt that learning the skills was more important than perfecting the details of the compulsory routines. In optional (and prep op) routines, there are no deductions for poses or moving in one direction on floor versus another, etc. It's all about the skills. And to her mind, if a gymnast can do all the skills really well, she will score high enough for USAG mobility in a "score out" meet, regardless of how much time is dedicated to the "fluff." I mean really, who needs to be able to do a perfect "fish pose" on beam anyway?

 

[mom2kazkids]

Last year was the first year that our gym participated in the Prep-Op program, using prep op gold as a stepping stone between level 6 and 7 for some of our girls. We do the fall compulsory season, and also the winter invitational season (this is also the competition time for optionals). Normally the girls that do level 6 in the fall started as level 6's in the winter season earlier in the year(previous winter season), up train for optionals over the summer then compete as a solid 6 in the fall, and move to 7 in the winter.

Last year we only had one girl that was ready for 7, and three that were not there yet. They may have been lacking one or two skills, so instead of repeating level 6, they competed prep op gold that way they got their own routines, and had time to get another year of training with the intent of moving 7 this winter.

This will most likely the the route that my DD takes this year. She is 10 (11 in Feb) and was a level 6 in the winter, but struggled with her BWO--mental issues. Currently over the summer she is a solid level 7 on floor, close to giants on bars, but flight on beam may still be a ways off. So we are thinking that for fall season she will be a 6 for 4 meets, then in the winter season she will still do level 6 at two meets that do not do prep op, but then do prep op gold for the other 4 meets. Hope is then that over the next year she will gain the rest of the 7 skills that she needs and be a 7 in winter of 2013 or what ever the level quivalent is that time.

Our girls that do prep op gold train the same amount of hours with the girls in their group that do level 7. This year our gym is also adding a prep op program that will just train 4 hours a week, those girls will do the prep op bronze and silver levels, and not participate in the USAG program They then will only compete in 3 winter meets.

 

[Tams Mom]

Our gym used to do compulsory and prep op, the prep op were the ones they considered more "talented" and who they would move up faster. Now they ony do prep op and the others who don't want to come to the gym as much do AAU. Our gym scores out of 5 and 6, and the girls either do prep platinum or level 7 after level 6 score out. the coaches they have are very particular about their form and skills, one of the prep silver girls got a 10 on beam at the state meet this year. my daughter did prep op and compulsories, she enjoyed the prepop so much more. the skill weren't dumbed down, she did harder skills as a prep op than she would have in the compulsory routines, she just graduated from high school and competed level 10.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Suplementing compusories with TOPs is the best option to produce a good optional gymnast, but TOPs is only good for young gymnasts.

TOPs training is NOT necessary to produce a good optional gymnast. All too often, a TOPs program is simply a money maker for a gym.... any GOOD gym will incorporate this type of strength/flexibility into their conditioning program anyway. . .

A TOPs-like conditioning program is good for ANY gymnast, regardless of age.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

It's been difficult to read this and not feel somewhat slighted as a gymnast for going through the compulsory system. I'm not trying to take it personal but it is kind of hard coming from the other side!

You gotta love the internet..... and I'm getting the feeling that the girls who DO GO prep op are being slighted!!! HA HA!!! Anyway, this IS a great discussion!!! And the way the Prep Op program is used from state to state, and how much it varies just lends more credence to the opinion that the program SHOULD be nationalized!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

I just remembered one more comment from previous HC/O about why she does prep op instead of compulsories. She felt that a lot of time was spent perfecting the poses and such in the compulsory routines, time that would be better spent working on the skills. She felt like a lot of time was wasted making sure this toe is here and that hand is here for this beam pose. She really felt that learning the skills was more important than perfecting the details of the compulsory routines. In optional (and prep op) routines, there are no deductions for poses or moving in one direction on floor versus another, etc. It's all about the skills. And to her mind, if a gymnast can do all the skills really well, she will score high enough for USAG mobility in a "score out" meet, regardless of how much time is dedicated to the "fluff." I mean really, who needs to be able to do a perfect "fish pose" on beam anyway?

This is exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post. I think by the time a girl is L6, she should already have some great tumbling on floor, have some decent skills on bars and beam, and have really gotten a good FHS vault.

 

[bribri514]

You gotta love the internet..... and I'm getting the feeling that the girls who DO GO prep op are being slighted!!! HA HA!!! Anyway, this IS a great discussion!!! And the way the Prep Op program is used from state to state, and how much it varies just lends more credence to the opinion that the program SHOULD be nationalized!

Lol it's true. The internet reminds me of what we call "Deaf drama". In the Deaf community (partially b/c it's small) but also because we text and e-mail instead of talking on the phone, we can't hear tone. So there's always someone getting upset about something! It's kind of crazy and silly sometimes.

Nationalization would be a really good idea. My question then would be, should prep op be set up to provide an alternative way through the levels in USAG or should be an alternative to the USAG levels entirely? If it's the first, I really think it should be integrated with the compulsory system instead of throwing it out entirely. Then maybe the level system could be saved with some tweaking to L 5 and L 6? If it's the other then there's still the issue with everyone who really prefers using prep op as a way to JO optionals. Then a lot comes from that, what it would do to local leagues like EAGLES and Mason Dixon for instance.

 

[gymgal]

When I read that so many people believe that prep-op is a stepping stone to the upper levels or a path "through" it really gives me pause. I personally have never seen a gymnast progress this way up from prep-op to level 8 and beyond and never heard of coaches, judges, or others on the inside of gymnastics speak of prep-op in this way. I've only seen it as the end of the road for gymnasts or a stepping stone to HS.

Our gym does only prep-op until level 7. Many of our girls place in the top 5 at meets at the 7-9 levels. You can't do that if you have sub-par foundational training, as many have suggested the prep-op program provides. So far we have had only 1 level 10 but in the next couple of years, we will have a few more. The program is still very young and in a rural community.

It seems that many people almost feel slighted because their gymnast goes through the traditional route and then could possibly meet up with a girl who went through the prep op system to get to level 7. If the prep-op girl made it to level 7, rest assured she has gone through the same hard work and sweat and tears the traditional girls have. Yes, she might have been able to delay a skill or two at a particular level but at some point, she had to learn them to progress in the levels. You can't do level 7-10 routines without having learned the basics... And in prep-op you can't avoid the foundation skills forever. It just allows you more time to develop them. But in reality most girls get their skills at the expected time and very closely follow the skill set of the compulsory levels. And just like in compulsory, for the girls who can't get their skills, they usually drop out after 2 years of not moving up. but at least they are able to enjoy the sport for 2 more years.

I'm still not getting the dumbing down comments either... isn't USAG changing all the skill requirements in the levels? From the little I read, they are going to be expecting MORE at each level, not less. (I'm writing this as I'm reading pg 6 so maybe this is being discussed already). If this is true, then obviously there is no dumbing down of gymnastics. The girls are getting so good at lower levels that they need to increase difficulty at each level. This may naturally delineate the the girls who can/cannot. This may be one of the reasons they are also seeking to nationalize the prep-op system to prepare for those girls who will not be able to handle the new level 5,6,7's in the times frames traditionally allotted. Continue to offer them options.

 

[gymgal]

Question.... what was the purpose for which Prep Op was started? I thought it was to provide an alternate path to JO. But it seems like many coaches are using it as a bridge over L6. I also thought that USAG "frowned upon" using Prep Op to skip L6. I wonder if as many gymnasts/parents would be interested in prep op if prep op gymnasts were not allowed to re-enter the JO program.

Prep-op was originally a transition step for those girls who had a successful level 6 year but didn't have the skills to go to level 7. Prep-op allowed them another year to develop skills without having to compete level 6 again. this helped the L6's because you didn't have girls stuck in level 6 for 2-3 years excelling on that routine and always placing in the top against novices. But I think as time went on, states began to see many more girls wanting to stay in this prep-op level because they couldn't go to 7 (money, time, skills, dedication, etc) so they began to expand the program. It became a system for girls to go to who didn't quite have the talent and drive to be on traditional team. (this is where a lot of parents and coaches are still at with the prep-op understanding) but it is changing again and is now being seen by many gyms (at least in a few states) as an alternative to the compulsory levels.

It's not about "re-entering" the system. The girls in prep-op *are* in the system. They have to pass out of levels 5 and 6. They have to get qualifying scores (most get much higher). Many gyms compete both compulsory in the fall and prep-op in the spring to give their girls extra practice and give them a taste of optional routines.

 

[AmandaLynn]

Whew. 8 pages. That was a long read. :lol: I skimmed some of the comments but I have to comment one one thing quickly. I know that dunno made a comment about the "dumbing down of America" that IMO, seems to have been taken out of context here.

When I read that comment, I took that as dunno's way of saying that it makes no sense to compete prep opt "instead" of L6, because you need to compete L6 at least once to "score out" anyway. The "Dumbing Down" seemed aimed that the fact that this particular practice doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

I did NOT take it as a "jab" at prep-opt, as a whole, nor did I feel like he (she? Sorry. unsure about that one, dunno. I've not been around long.) intended to say that the entire prep-opt program was a "dumbed down" version of the JO program.

Hopefully, dunno will come back and comment, but I had to comment, because, like I mentioned, it seemed to be taken a bit out of context.

 

[Bella's Mom]

Dunno is not only a man, he is "da man"!!!!!