WAG Question About Excel

[GymDad9.9]

I happened to be looking at the results of this weekend's Florida Excel Championships on mymeetscores (Props to getting those scores out in a timely fashion!) and noticed that some of the gyms had girls who had just competed in the state compulsory championships at the end of 2015 (Level 3 and 4 mostly) turn around and compete in the Excel competitions and State Championships. A number of them did very well coming away with State Championships. My questions are, how is possible for compulsory-trained girls who just finished a competition season at their level turn around and compete at Excel? How is that fair to the girl who trains just Excel, presumably on a time shortened training schedule? Seems like a bunch of Excel only girls got shut out as well as Excel only teams. Doesn't seem right.

 

[Natasha]

USAG tried to cut down on this problem some by stating that a girl cannot compete in both championships the same season, however for states with a fall compulsory season, some gyms will let them compete spring Xcel for fun or to keep the momentum or whatever. Xcel is used for so many different things for different gyms there is no way for it to be 'fair.' You have some gyms who have their best gymnasts competing Xcel in place of compulsories, as a fast track to optionals, who may be training 20hours a week competing against girls barely doing more than a rec class….

 

[gymbeam]

Yeah, it really isn't fair. Just for discussion, here are examples of two different local gyms uses of Xcel that are interesting to me.

Gym 1 competes all of their team girls up through Xcel Platinum and then they transition to JO at level 7 or 8 (they do score out meets for 4 and 5 during the Silver and Gold seasons). This particular gym naturally places really high at meets and takes tops spots at Xcel states and regionals because they are training these girls to reach Level 10 on day. It rubs me the wrong way.

Gym 2 competes all team girls in Xcel Bronze and Silver first but they do so in two different training groups. Group 1 is the "Xcel forever" group and Group 2 is the "Moving to JO Level 4" group. The two groups go to completely separate Bronze & Silver meets and have totally different coaches, etc. Group 2 naturally trains more hours - BUT- they do not take Group 2 to the State or Regional meets. I totally respect that. They could sweep the podium with that set of girls but it would be unfair to their lower training hours group.​

Anyway, I wonder if making all levels have a required score out would help? In both Xcel and JO? I'm sure there are a lot of good arguments against that, but not having thought it through it seems like it could discourage the hopping back and forth?

 

[duyetanh]

There is already a few threads on this subject if you search for them...and I have popcorn stuck iny tooth, lol...

 

[Deleted member 18037]

You are assuming the Xcel girls train less and not at the level a JO girl does and that is not remotely the case in a lot of instances.

I can only speak to Region 6, other regions mileage may vary. You can compete in both states JO and Xcel in the same season. What you can not do is go to Regionals in Xcel if you have competed at both JO and Xcel States, even if your state Xcel scores are qualifying scores.

Gyms train in many different ways. And they use the programs differently. From very low to very high hours.

Many use Xcel to fast track kids and bypass compulsories. And they train high hours in Xcel and higher still in JO.

There are gyms that say their Xcel program is less intense then JO and it is for their JO team. Yet these gyms train more hours for Xcel then some JO gyms.
There are Xcel gyms that train very low hours.

Our gym is on the lower side of hours. And our coaches philosophy is as long as the kid is in the level appropriate for them, gymnastics is gymnastics. A BHS is a BHS, FT a FT. The skill doesn't change because its IGC, Xcel, JO, Elite, NCAA. They like the compulsory levels for basics and they like have optionals to allow the girls flexibility and to be creative and learn the ability to adapt even at the lower levels. So our gym does both a compulsory and optional season. All of the girls there are team, no tracks. Team is team, leos the same for L2 or L10. Its team. So even when my daughter was a L2 JO, she did an optional season, with her own music for her own floor and beam routine. We have done both IGC and Xcel as our optional season.

In an effort to head off the its not fair because of the hours JO kids train discussion. Even in JO the difference in hours gyms train, varies widely.

And as it relates to the gyms I have first hand knowledge of.

Our former gym the JO kids train 9-18 hours level dependent, Xcel 4-8
Another gym in our area JO 18 hours Xcel 15,
Third gym Xcel 12-15 (don't know their JO hours can only assume more as they track differently)

Our gym, no tracks, one team.
Training max's out at 12-15 hours
My daughter at L2, did 5 hours, some did 7.5
L3, 7.5, some did 10
L4, 9, some 12
Now training and competing L6 skills, she is doing 1o, some weeks 13 when it can be managed. Most at the gym 12-15
Most do more hours in the summer as does my daughter.

With regard to meets, states, regionals and the like. It will never be a level playing field with regards to how the kids train. Not in hours, not how those hours are spent.
And the difference in Xcel is perhaps more extreme then both IGC and JO, from having experienced all three.

 

[2G1B]

FL is region 8. Most of Region 8 uses Excel very differently than the stated purpose of lower hours/keep girls in. Most girls doing Xcel in Region 8 are doing comparable hours to JO or even more hours as they are being fast tracked. It is what it is. As someone else said, there are a lot of posts about it.

That being said, it is also possible for some of the lower hour girls to beat some of the higher hour/fast track girls. My DD was outscored on bars this weekend because she was doing a level 6 bar routine (one that would do well at level 6) and was up against girls doing a chinup pull over, cast, back hip circle, cast, squat on, jump to high bar, tap swing, half turn dismount. There may have been a leg cut in there (there was in warm up; but I didn't see if she competed it). Some could say that isn't fair; but for us, "it is what it is". My DD doesn't want to dumb down her routine even though she knows that she could score REALLY high with a routine like that. She knows that her ultimate goal is moving on to optionals next year, so she just deals with getting out scored this year.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

I happened to be looking at the results of this weekend's Florida Excel Championships on mymeetscores (Props to getting those scores out in a timely fashion!) and noticed that some of the gyms had girls who had just competed in the state compulsory championships at the end of 2015 (Level 3 and 4 mostly) turn around and compete in the Excel competitions and State Championships. A number of them did very well coming away with State Championships. My questions are, how is possible for compulsory-trained girls who just finished a competition season at their level turn around and compete at Excel? How is that fair to the girl who trains just Excel, presumably on a time shortened training schedule? Seems like a bunch of Excel only girls got shut out as well as Excel only teams. Doesn't seem right.

I totally agree with you. It goes against the spirit of the two programs for them to compete two state meets within 4 months of each other.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

FL is region 8. Most of Region 8 uses Excel very differently than the stated purpose of lower hours/keep girls in. Most girls doing Xcel in Region 8 are doing comparable hours to JO or even more hours as they are being fast tracked. It is what it is. As someone else said, there are a lot of posts about it.

I'm definitely not an expert on Xcel or JO, but I don't think that this is necessarily true in NC. I know there are some strong gyms that compete Xcel and then score out of 4&5 and go right to optionals in NC, but I don't think it is a majority. And looking at the recent Xcel state meet results in NC, I looked at the top scorers and I think a large majority are from gyms that do not use Xcel that way. They are from gyms that do have very high scoring JO girls also, but I don't think there is much crossover between the teams. I do think it is likely they do a lot of hours though just knowing the reputations of the gyms. Anyway, I know that you said most of region 8, not all, but I thought I'd point out that I don't think it's all that common in NC.

FWIW, my dd's gym just started an Xcel team and they are definitely not intended to fast track. They are generally older gymnasts who are doing fewer hours, but are enjoying competing.

 

[raenndrops]

You are assuming the Xcel girls train less and not at the level a JO girl does and that is not remotely the case in a lot of instances.

I can only speak to Region 6, other regions mileage may vary. You can compete in both states JO and Xcel in the same season. What you can not do is go to Regionals in Xcel if you have competed at both JO and Xcel States, even if your state Xcel scores are qualifying scores.

Actually, USAG has said that you CANNOT compete both States in JO and Xcel in the same season… you can compete them both in the same YEAR… for example, Because New York has "Early" States and States, a gymnast could compete Early States as a JO and States as Xcel (similar to Fall Season and Spring season), but they are in violation of USAG R&P if they compete in States for both JO and Xcel in the spring.

 

[raenndrops]

Anyway, I wonder if making all levels have a required score out would help? In both Xcel and JO? I'm sure there are a lot of good arguments against that, but not having thought it through it seems like it could discourage the hopping back and forth?

USAG will not make mandatory move up scores… and they have valid reasons.
1 - Some girls may score well in say Level 3… but not have the skills for Level 4. It would not be fair to force a girl to move up without the necessary skills. Same thing with the jump from L7 to L8… how fair is it to make a girl move up if she doesn't have giants or a flipping vault?
2 - Some gymnasts and families won't want to put in more hours / can't afford more hours, and at many gyms, there is an increase in hours and cost that accompanies an increase in level.
3 - Some meets are notorious for scoring easier than others. If your gym goes to several of those, the girls may be forced to move up when they wouldn't have made the scores if they went to tougher scoring meets (same with regional variation in judging - in some areas, everyone would move up and in other areas, nobody would be forced to move up).

The Great Lakes Region of the YMCA used to have mandate scores… which, if scored 2x in a season, meant a girl had to move up the next season (unless petitioned to repeat- which could only be done if it was the first season the girl competed the level, the 2 scores were "flukes," or the gymnast was injured).
They did add an event score stipulation saying that along with the AA score, each event had to also meet a specified score in that same meet to count.
The scores were too low though. And the move up requirement made our region less competitive at Nationals (because other regions didn't have mandate scores).

Here were the mandate scores (yes, I know they are low - that was one of the many problems with them and one reason they got rid of them):
Level 3 … 33.00 with 8.25 on each event in the same meet. Done 2x.
Level 4 … 34.00 with 8.00 on each event in the same meet. Done 2x.
Level 5 … 33.00 with 7.75 on each event in the same meet. Done 2x.
L6-L7 … 34.00 with an 8.0. on each event in the same meet. Done 2x.
I can't remember the L8 to L9 requirement (we didn't have any L8s at the time).
There was no requirement from Level 9 because very few YMCA gyms compete L10.
Nationalized Xcel was too new, so they didn't have the requirements set (Plus it would be hard to do considering a girl could score well with minimum routines, but be no where close to having the minimum skills for the next division).

Because we only practice a maximum of 7.5 hours a week (if no practices are missed), there are girls who don't make these scores in a given season.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I think if there were mandatory move up scores they would be required to be hit more than once (let's say just for fun a 37-38 at three meets or a 38+ at two meets). I'm gonna give my opinion on each point:

1. I also think that if a kid hit the score for one level but truly wasn't ready for the next, their time (and their parent's money) would be better spent on training the next level instead of continuously competing the same level. I think it would alleviate the compete or quit mentality- there's nothing wrong with training without competing until you're ready.

2. I also think that if there isn't a commitment to moving up- including the time and money commitment required by a particular gym- then that gym isn't a good fit for that family, or that family isn't a good fit for gymnastics. The whole point of the system is to move through the levels and at almost gyms each subsequent level means higher commitment.

3. As for easy scoring meets- people would either avoid them (and the trend would die out if those meets weren't well attended) or the scoring would naturally come back to reality as to not burden girls too easily. Obviously I am in favor of move up mandates, even if it's unpopular.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I akin it to speed limits- there are maximums, but there are minimums too. A nice healthy range would be the most fair to everyone. Can't move up till you hit 31, have to move up once you hit 38.. Or something like that.

 

[ascarter1]

Our gym isn't doing excel next season for this very reason! We are in region 8 as well.

 

[gymbeam]

Oh! Raendrops I wasn't even thinking mandatory move ups - I meant more like requiring people to compete levels 1,2 and 3 so using xcel before compulsory wouldn't be as practical.

 

[AmandaLynn]

I am from a gym that has a very strong JO team with a completely separate Xcel track and I am sure that people assume our Xcel kids do a ton of hours. They don't. Our Bronzes do 6, silvers do 7.5 and Gold/Platinum do 9.

I am happy with our results based on our expectations from that program. We will not be increasing hours in the Xcel program to try to chase the teams scoring mid 116s.

 

[z2akids]

At DD's gym, there is an ability to move between the 2 tracks. Most of the girls start out in Level 3 with a few in Xcel Bronze. Girls often move from Level 4 to Xcel Gold rather than do another season at 4 if they are not ready to move to optionals.

Once in Xcel, most of the girls stay there - fewer hours, more time for a life outside the gym, more flexibility and overall a more laid back program.

However, there is only 1 competition season in our State regardless of level.

 

[LizzieLac]

As long as USAG and state rules are not broken, I guess I don't see the issue of competing in both Xcel and JO. I can only control what my DD does, where she trains, what hours work for her, etc. Some might say that what our gym is not fair. Our platinum girls train with our optionals - same coaches and workout with level 6s. Up to gold, Xcel is a little less intense, fewer hours, but just like progressing through JO levels and hours, if they get the skills and can meet the requirements you move up to platinum.

We also allow some movement between Xcel and JO. As our owner/HC states it, kids choose the path or level/division that makes sense for them at that time. My DD is doing Platinum, coming from JO as a level 7. Is that fair? Most people who don't know her situation might say it isn't, but she was recovering from a bad leg break and a needed surgery in November. Dialing it back a little to Platinum and working out with our level 6s was right for her. She was not ready to do the hours of the 7-10 group.

My point is, there are variables and personal situations that come into play, as well as gym philosophy. As long as the rules are not broken...

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Ah yes...so many threads on this and lots of opinions! Though I fully admit I may not be knowledgeable enough to have an opinion, and please let me know if this is flawed thinking, but I have always thought a good solution would be this: On July 31 you (well, your gym) picks what you are-JO or Xcel. Done. And that's what you are for 365 days, reassess the following year if needed. Am I crazy?! I do see both sides. It's great to get kids experience doing optional routines early, but it really isn't fair (yes...I know..."gymnastics will never be fair") to kids that truly want to enjoy the wonderful world of competitive gymnastics yet only train a couple times a week and have time to do other things. I know this is another crazy thought and will never happen, but I almost wish they had two separate programs on top of JO. One as an adjunct to JO, and another for kids who use it the original intended way. One more thought to OP (before I dodge the punches for my insane statements lol)- "the way things are" at gyms is sometimes very different even within the same area, and no gym is perfect. So even though someone may not agree with a certain policy or way their gym does things, if that gym works for their kid and their family overall then that's all that matters. (I love the way my gym works, but I have seen other people get beat up for their gym's choices when this subject comes up!)
ETA: Yes, the Mrs. Puma rule would have some sort of exceptions for injury/gym changes ect

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Parts or all of the above make sense. And you will still never be able to equalize the training hours or the quality of that training.

You will still have kids doing 9 hours competing against kids doing 20. As others have said, it is what it is.

And we don't make the rules.

 

[raenndrops]

I akin it to speed limits- there are maximums, but there are minimums too. A nice healthy range would be the most fair to everyone. Can't move up till you hit 31, have to move up once you hit 38.. Or something like that.

I like the 38 idea… like I said, ours were way too low. But there are still areas in which a 38 is rare to unheard of… but the girls STILL dominate with lower scores. Their coaches could then use the "well, you didn't MANDATE" argument to keep the gymnast down (those gyms that sandbag are the ones i am referring to).