Parents Question about Prep Op vs JO and advice needed

[Krystan]

So, off to talking to our coach next, but having some doubts now. If they usually start pre-team at the age of 5-6, and moving on to level 4 at 6-7, maybe DD is too old, being almost 9 next fall?

It depends on what you mean by "too old". She probably *will* be the oldest one on the team, and have small age groups at meets (better chance of placing higher!), but if she loves gymnastics and wants to do her best, have the best coaching, and be there a lot of hours, then JO is the way to go. If she really wants it, and you are supportive, then find a gym to make it happen. My dd competed L4 as a 10yo (as I think I already mentioned). She was one of the oldest, but it didn't bother her a bit. She's always been "young" for her age and is comfortable with younger kids. It all depends on what she wants out of it. But definitely the sooner the better, if she wants JO!

 

[JMACAZ]

I am glad you were able to talk with someone. There very may be 5-6 year old pre team girls but I also bet there are ones who are 7 or close to it. I know my daughter will be an older JO L3 but like a PP said more chance of a smaller age group and scoring higher. Also the additional time in the gym will be a real benefit to her. I agree that you just have to figure out what you both want out of gymnastics. Maybe her coach will have some insight?? Good luck.

 

[RileyG]

if she loves gymnastics and wants to do her best, have the best coaching, and be there a lot of hours, then JO is the way to go.

I just have to say the girls that do Xcel also want to do their best, and have coaches who are every bit as good as the JO coaches. In fact at our gym they help each other out all the time.
I think sometimes Xcel gets a bad rep for whatever reason. For a lot of girls who did JO and just want to be able to do other things Xcel is perfect and around here it is quite competitive with gymnasts who are every bit as good as most in the JO program.

 

[IreneKa]

Thanks guys! Lots to think about.
By "too old" I mean too old to achieve something in this sport? Like dunno said in the other thread - national teams, international competitions, etc.
It’s hard to tell what she wants, she is only 8, of course she says she wants to go to the Olympics. And I don’t want to disappoint her by telling her no, you won’t go to the Olympics, because you are on the wrong team. I know she most likely won’t get there, but still I want her to have more opportunities than what XCell program offers.
For now she enjoys gymnastics a lot, and I know if she could spend more hours in the gym, she gladly would.
Now, being on a team with younger girls, I’m not sure how she would take it. She is quite mature for her age, and enjoys spending time with older kids. I’ll talk to her about that when I know more about what our options are.

 

[MaryA]

Don't assume just because she's the ripe old age of 8, she'll be the oldest one on preteam (or level 3 or whatever she ends up doing). It just depends on the gym. And I wouldn't decide what she will or won't be able to accomplish based on her age, her height, or anything else. Let her shoot for the stars, if that's what she wants.

 

[Gymmommy71]

Yeah, all the age stuff *totally* depends on the gym. I see certain teams at meets where EVERY SINGLE ONE of their girls will be in the same age group - like a team of 12+ L5s, ALL 8 years old...a team of 10 L6's, all 10 years old...also, every girl is the exact same height, body type, etc. It's very obvious that some gyms filter/recruit based on age and size. I joke that when these teams order their comp leos the process is very simple - measure one girl and order 15 of them in that size...or the gym just has a big box of 100 leos, if a girl walks into the gym looking to be on team, the first step is have her try on the leo...if it fits, she moves on for further evaluation, if it doesn't, "sorry"...tehe...

Kidding aside, I do think it might get pretty boring or frustrating for the girls on teams that do this as they are ALWAYS competing w/ their teammates for the medals when you are all the same age...wouldn't it be like having an inhouse meet every where you go?

 

[motigymnasticsmom]

Actually, my dd is10. This is her first year in xcel bronze. She started at 7 in rec. I prefer xcel for all of the right reasons. They do practice less, good for dd less stress on body nd mind. Time for homework(plus). Less time in gym equals more desire nd hopefully no eventual burnout. I see the jo compulsaries nd feel sorry for them that they have to all do the same things nd same routines (seems boring to me). I dont know about other areas, but here, xcel judging is just as strict as jo. And they eventually end up in jo further down the line anyway.

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[Krystan]

I just have to say the girls that do Xcel also want to do their best, and have coaches who are every bit as good as the JO coaches. In fact at our gym they help each other out all the time.
I think sometimes Xcel gets a bad rep for whatever reason. For a lot of girls who did JO and just want to be able to do other things Xcel is perfect and around here it is quite competitive with gymnasts who are every bit as good as most in the JO program.

I think it depends on where you are and what gym you're at. At ours, there is definitely better coaching in JO, no question. Also, more hours in the gym generally means more opportunity to excel. Not always, but usually (more time for conditioning, etc). I agree that prep-op (sometimes Xcel, at ours it is with another league) is perfect for those that want to do other activities, and at gyms where it is well-supported. We may eventually switch to it for financial reasons, so I am in now way being "down" on prep-op (I realize my quick post may have come across that way). I just think that if the OP wants a more structured program with more hours and intensity, JO is the way to go. I am actually kind of jealous that your gym has such a well-developed Xcel program. Sounds great! Hopefully ours will get there eventually.

 

[IreneKa]

Our XCel program is great. The coaches are great, and just as strict as JO coaches. And I love it that she got to compete this year, if she was on a pre-team, she wouldn't. My only concern is the practice hours. Right now we are practicing 5 hours a week, pre-team practices 8 hours. If we stay with XCel, DD won't be moving to silver yet, she'll be staying in bronze and still practicing 5 hours a week. While level 4 team will be practicing 13 hours! No way she would be able to catch up to them after that. So, our only chance to switch to JO is now, while she is approximatly at the same skill level as level 4.
I'm still terrified when I see those crazy JO hours (level 4 - 13 hours, level 5 - 15 hours, level 6 - 18 hours, level 7 and up - 20 hours)! I don't know how they do it, and where they find time for the schoolwork. But I figure we can always switch back to XCel if it gets too much. But if she really wants to be a gymnast (and she says she does) we have to do something about it now, or it'll be too late, right?

 

[lhmom]

I'm still terrified when I see those crazy JO hours (level 4 - 13 hours, level 5 - 15 hours, level 6 - 18 hours, level 7 and up - 20 hours)! I don't know how they do it, and where they find time for the schoolwork. But I figure we can always switch back to XCel if it gets too much. But if she really wants to be a gymnast (and she says she does) we have to do something about it now, or it'll be too late, right?

DD (9) is getting ready to jump from 12.5 hours to 15.5 hours starting next week. Most kids who compete JO learn to be very efficient with their time outside of school. DD learned early on to work on homework whenever she had free time. Currently, she works on homework on the way to gym and finishes up when she gets home at 7:30. With projects, there is no waiting until the week it's due. She works on it right away. Now, she's also in 3rd grade, so there's not alot of it yet (and her school does not give a ton of "busy work" at night). But, she also knows that if she has some free time at school, she can also get it done there. These girls find ways to make it work and I think they learn how to manage their time well. As for your daughter, I think that you just need to talk to the coaches. If her gym's Xcel program feeds into the JO program for the upper levels, then think about sticking with what she's currently doing. If they really just use it as an alternative to JO, then talking to the coaches about moving over now might be the best plan.

 

[jmanmommmy]

One of my daughters made a successful jump from Excel to JO in 2012. Our gym seems to use it both ways. As an "alternate program" for older girls (say over 10). At least last year, though, they were open to some younger girls switching over from Excel Bronze/Silver to levels 4 or 5. These girls as a group who had just rec then one year of Excel are doing better in levels 4/5/6 than those who came up as itty bitties from age 4 through pre team development. So I really do not think coming onto preteam as a 4 or 5 year old really has a lot of correlation with success, at least from what happened at our gym this year.

Gyms that don't let "over the hill" 8 or 9 years olds come over from Excel may be missing out, at least based on what I saw happen at our gym. Our Excel coaches are good though, and take form and conditioning seriously. A 4 or 5 year joins preteam largely because of parents steering them there. A talented 6 through 9 year old can catch up very quickly. And frankly, picking only girls based on 4, 5, or 6 year old body type then making it extremely difficult for anyone else to get into the JO route seems silly. That's a lot of power in the hands of the least experienced team coaches in the gym (they are the ones doing the picking and coaching of the early levels at our gym).

I had a little revelation this winter when I realized that of our very successful Level 9 and 10 team, only a fraction came up through our gym. Most of them came from other gyms around level 8.

Here's something to think about. Of the coaches handpicking or doing tryouts for level preteam/4/5 girls at your gym this year, how many girls have those particular coaches picked for team who ended up being a really successful level 9/10? Our gym is a great one and very successful, but my guess is that here the answer to that question is 0 or maybe one or two for the coaches doing the tryouts. So perhaps they should remember, like the rest of us try to, to be kind and humble....


It was an uphill struggle for my daughter to move into JO. She had to "prove herself" much more than those that were just funneled in as young kids because they were really short and muscular. But then again, she earned her spot and maybe she will value it more and put in that bit of extra effort...

 

[Gymmommy71]

I agree that many 7-8-9 year olds come in and catch up very quickly to girls who have been doing intense gymnastics since age 5. It seems like the older girls are just more determined and eager to get skills, and are basically trying harder to "prove themselves", and often pass up the girls who have been on the team track for as long as they remember because some of those girls just take their spot on the team for granted...

 

[IreneKa]

Update on my chat with a coach.
So, I talked with DD's coach on Friday. Her first reaction was "she is not a JO material". Then she went on explaining that DD is not always focused during practice, like some days she would do everything perfectly, then the other day it's like she's never done this before. And in JO they are more strict, and you have to be consistent and stay focused all the time.
Well, that kind of surprised me. I usually stay and watch the first 1/2 hour while they are doing warm ups, and then I come back 15-20 minutes before the end of the practice, and they are usually doing floor at that time. Whenever I'm there she looks pretty focused to me. But I also can believe what she is saying, because before gymnastics we were doing ballroom dancing, and that's exactly what her dance instructor used to tell me: one day she is better than everyone else, the next day it's like she's never danced before. But that was back when she was 5-6 yo, I was hoping she outgrew that. Apparently not. *sigh*

Anyway, the coach went on saying that the JO coaches usually watch all the girls, and if they see someone they are interested in, they approach them. But she would talk to them and tell them that we are interested, and maybe they can watch her more closely and we'll see what they say.

After that I had a long talk with DD. I explained the difference between Prep Op and JO. I didn't push JO, I told her if she wants to stay in prep op that's perfectly fine, she would still be competing, and learning new skills, and having fun. But if she wants more serious gymnastics she needs to stay focused all the time, and she'll have to work hard and be very organized, etc.
Her response was yes, I want to switch, I want to be a serious gymnast, yes I'll be focused, yes I want more practice time, yes I'll do my homework on time, and I won't watch TV and won't play on the computer, etc. etc.
I also mentioned that she'll probably be the oldest on the team. She said, that’s fine, even better, because the reason I'm not focused now is because I talk to other girls on my team, but if they are all younger I won't want to talk to them. LOL! yeah, right.

So, I guess we don't have much choice now but to try and get her on that JO team. I think I need to try to talk to that JO coach/owner myself. He is a nice guys, but it's hard to catch him off the floor. JO practices from 5 to 9, and we practice 6 to 8:30. So, when we get there he is already on the floor, and when we leave he is still there. But I’ll try.

 

[MaryA]

Wow, sounds like you had a pretty productive talk. I hope that things go the way you want them to!

 

[lhmom]

So glad to hear that you got some straight answers. Hope that everything works out for her. Keep us posted!

 

[iwannacoach]

........... So I really do not think coming onto preteam as a 4 or 5 year old really has a lot of correlation with success, at least from what happened at our gym this year.......

Gyms that don't let "over the hill" 8 or 9 years olds come over from Excel may be missing out............ A 4 or 5 year joins preteam largely because of parents steering them there. A talented 6 through 9 year old can catch up very quickly.

I had a little revelation this winter when I realized that of our very successful Level 9 and 10 team, only a fraction came up through our gym. Most of them came from other gyms around level 8.

It was an uphill struggle for my daughter to move into JO. She had to "prove herself" much more than those that were just funneled in as young kids because they were really short and muscular. But then again, she earned her spot and maybe she will value it more and put in that bit of extra effort...

You managed to hit many nails smack on the head. I feel that while gymnastics is a great activity for kids 3 years old and up, it should remain just one of a small collection of activities a child enjoys until they are old enough to understand what increased time at the gym means to the adults who "guide" them through the process. I'm not critical of parent's who chase their child's dreams along side them, but am concerned that neither the child nor the parent understands what's truly in store.

I'm sure there are a few parents who will mentally respond with....... "You just don't understand. I know my child better than anyone, and know what he/she wants." Well, I'll agree with those who react in that manner, but here's a point to consider......... I know your child reasonably well, possible far better than you know the sport of gymnastics. Beyond that there are very few people who know the sport as well as I, and my years of experience scream out loud that an early start has potentially more draw backs than advantages.

I also feel that it's entirely possible for a child to walk into a gym with no prior experience as late as the age of 10 and still make it to levels 9 & 10. Admittedly, their progress through the sport would have to be blessed with the good fortune of natural ability, a natural work ethic specific to the sport, and the benefits of a good gym with capable staff, but the exact same things are true of the child who start at age 4 and moves quickly to a "team track," as there is no advantage that can take the place of passion for the sport, and gymnastics intelligence, and all that those qualities entail.

The observation of the lack or scarcity of "home town" level 10's somewhat validates my position, as there should be some success attributable to a selection process, but since the intangible assets of a future L9 or 10 can't be clearly seen until adolescence, this type of selection process seems to me a waste of time and resources for all involved.

I'll take the spirited, healthy, and intelligent 10 year old any day.

 

[JMACAZ]

I am glad you got to talk with your DD's coach. I hope that you get a chance to speak to the HC. Sounds like your daughter is up for the challenge. My DD has some focus issues as well but I am hoping since she will be older and more of a "leader" that will help her to stay on task. Keep us posted.

 

[CreateMagic]

Try giving her some "tricks" to help her focus... When a coach gives her a direction, have her repeat it back, then say it to herself a few times. It will give her time to process the direction or correction and also will show the coach that she listened and heard what the coach said.

At this age, she probably has some awareness of her focus level and how it varies day to day. If she knows she's having an "off" day, prompt her to ask for corrections on skills. That may help her to learn to self-correct as she gains an awareness of how her body responds on "good" vs. "bad" focus days. If she does have the self-awareness yet, try to get her to talk about how she feels (mentally and physically) on days that she is particularly unfocused--point out differences you or the coach sees on "good" and "bad" days so that she can start to develop an awareness. She will feel like she has more control of herself too as she learns about how her mind works!

 

[raenndrops]

Yes, they have teams all the way up to level 10.
I'm not 100% sure we want to go all the way. I mean, I looked at their schedule, and the girls at level 7-10 train up to 24 hours a week!
But I don't want to deny my dauther the oportunity to try. She can always switch back to prep-op (Xcel) if it get too much. But if she stays with this program, it will be impossible to switch to JO later on, and then she'll blame us that we didn't do anything sooner.
Is there any age limitations in JO program? I mean she is 8 now. If she is not ready for level 4 now, but will be ready next year when she is 9, will it be too late?

As long as she is 6, technically, she is age eligible for Level 4. In some states, the compulsory athletes only compete in a Fall season. You often find that they have Prep-Op/Xcel in the spring season with the rest of the Optionals. Apparently, they have decided that she can succeed using her own routines. This can actually be a good thing. She can go back into JO when she is ready to compete the current Level 5 (it will be Level 4 in August). She will need her kip, a beam cartwheel, and a roundoff 2 back handsprings among other skills to do that. There are advancement opportunities in Prep-Op too, so don't worry about her being "stuck." They are creating Nationals Standards for that too. There are 5 levels with the highest level of Xcel being equivalent to about JO Level 8 or 9. A lot of girls actually prefer this program because they can also pursue outside interests. There are state meets for many Xcel levels too.
I
f they will not move her to the JO track and you REALLY want her doing the same routine as 70 other girls in her session, you can look into another gym. The biggest drawback I see with JO is that the judges know exactly what you are supposed to do and if you do a heal snap turn instead of a pivot turn or vice versa, they take off. If you do your handstand bridge kickover first and your handstand forward roll second (level 4), they take off. If you do your jumps out of order, they take off. Too many things for them to take deductions on that aren't really necessary. As long as you do the skills, the order shouldn't matter
Or you can stay with the Xcel program until she is high school age and petition right into JO Level 7 by demonstrating her skills... although I can't see ANY gym keeping her in Xcel if she has L7 skills. They would more likely just have her score out of L5 and L6 (or after August, L4 and L5) and move her into JO Optionals.
There is also a chance that they want to see what she can do in Prep-Op and when she has the skills necessary, move her into the JO team.

I hope this helps.
BTW, I have one gymmie, age 11, that was JO Level 6 and decided to switch to Xcel so she could do her own routines and leave out skills she didn't like. She was tired of getting deducted for the petty things. My other gymmie, age 8, is a Level 4 (2nd year) and will be a Level 3 in August when they change all the compulsory levels.

 

[IreneKa]

Try giving her some "tricks" to help her focus... When a coach gives her a direction, have her repeat it back, then say it to herself a few times. It will give her time to process the direction or correction and also will show the coach that she listened and heard what the coach said.

At this age, she probably has some awareness of her focus level and how it varies day to day. If she knows she's having an "off" day, prompt her to ask for corrections on skills. That may help her to learn to self-correct as she gains an awareness of how her body responds on "good" vs. "bad" focus days. If she does have the self-awareness yet, try to get her to talk about how she feels (mentally and physically) on days that she is particularly unfocused--point out differences you or the coach sees on "good" and "bad" days so that she can start to develop an awareness. She will feel like she has more control of herself too as she learns about how her mind works!

Thanks for the tips!
I think her biggest problem is that she is too social, always needs to talk to those around her. Some days I pick her up and she is upset because this girl didn't want to talk to her because she was talking to that girl instead, or something like that. I think sometimes she focuses more on making friends with the girls and being accepted by them, rather than on her gymnastics. Maybe being with the younger girls really would be better for her.