WAG Question for coaches and parents. Move-ups?

[wallinbl]

and you won't see our level 5 girls, like was mentioned in another thread, warming up layouts on floor

I would have thought it nuts to do that until reading another thread on here about how that helps with FHS vault. Maybe they're just warming up vault! (I kid)

 

[cbifoja]

It would bother me to if the coach had already told me what my daughter would be competing almost a YEAR from now!

Our season ends in March with States. April and May are our fun months!!! The girls get to learn new routines and new skills with no pressure. Once school is out, they go into intense uptraining and do this until the beginning of August. Only then is the decision made about testing out, competing the level, or repeating a level. The girls have two months to prove their mettle for the upcoming season. We all make assumptions about where our daughters will end up but they are just are assumptions and we don't know until school starts and competition training begins.

I feel like that is fair. They get training ad opportunity to see where they are going to work best. What happens if one of the gym princesses has a growth spurt and loses some skills? What happens if one of the pigeonholed girls really comes into her talent and just blossoms?

Blech....I would be frustrated with your gym people too. :-(

 

[Quadqueen]

I would have thought it nuts to do that until reading another thread on here about how that helps with FHS vault. Maybe they're just warming up vault! (I kid)

LOL, I meant RO-BHS-LO, but most 5s around here can't do a good front LO either!!

 

[MaryA]

Quite frankly, from this post and others, it just doesn't sound like this gym is a great fit for you. I don't think it would be a good fit for me either. In some ways, it almost sounds like they don't really care if the girls in the "less advanced" group quit or not. And it's a pretty far drive for you too, isn't it? (forgive me if I'm mixing different moms up in my head) I don't remember if you have determined for sure that this gym is the best option within a reasonable driving distance? If so, and if your daughter is still loving gymnastics, I guess suck it up, figure that your daughter will have a great (2nd) level 4 season and hope for lots of uptraining so that she flies through level 5 too. If it's not, add this to your ever-growing list of "reasons to look elsewhere."

 

[BlairBob]

They usually stay hidden after practice.

WTH?! :scratchchin::wide-eyed: Baloney, IMO.

I understand the desire for high scoring. It helps a gym's rep.

But let's also face it...mandating 2 years in a compulsory level is dumb. That can be time wasted on not up training if they want to get high levels or elites. I guess this depends on your goals.

Doing L3 next year has mostly to do with kid management. How many of those kids will be ready for next year's L4 (this year's L5). Probably not so many. It's all about the kip and all the other stuff in L5 like a real vault, CW on BB, solid FHS.

 

[LizzieLac]

Personal experience here. I think it is hard as parents to see what coaches are trying to accomplish sometimes. There is so much that coaches could be looking for in order to move a kid up. There could be weaknesses that as parents we don't see. Scores are really NOT everything when looking at the next level and the new requirements. Kids scoring 37 in level 4 have clearly mastered level 4, but it does not mean they are ready for level 5. The key is are the uptraining the next level of skills while competing, so the transition to the next level is easy.

The coaches owe you an explanation. You shouldn't have to chase them for it, but often that is what happens. There may be a very logical approach behind repeating, but they need to explain it. You may not agree with the philosophy, in which case you have the right to consider a different gym whose training and advancement philosophy you are comfortable with.

It stinks, I know. Have a conversation with the coaches first. You may see things differently or at least more clearly.

 

[mamaoftwo]

Quite frankly, from this post and others, it just doesn't sound like this gym is a great fit for you. I don't think it would be a good fit for me either. In some ways, it almost sounds like they don't really care if the girls in the "less advanced" group quit or not. And it's a pretty far drive for you too, isn't it? (forgive me if I'm mixing different moms up in my head) I don't remember if you have determined for sure that this gym is the best option within a reasonable driving distance? If so, and if your daughter is still loving gymnastics, I guess suck it up, figure that your daughter will have a great (2nd) level 4 season and hope for lots of uptraining so that she flies through level 5 too. If it's not, add this to your ever-growing list of "reasons to look elsewhere."

Yes, our drive is approximately one hour each way.

I have taken several issues with this gym. My trouble is that DD loves it. She does have a tremendous amount of pride in her often-first-place gym.

And yes, it seems like these girls are the afterthoughts. There is one other gym that is nearly the same distance and a second that is in the same town as her elementary school. I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll at least see what they're about (if I don't manage to get answers).

I don't want to gym-hop. I really don't. And DD's happiness comes first. But I am really not liking their attitudes.

When we first moved to this gym, we were at their other campus. DD was supposed to stay there another year, but due to staffing got switched a year + early. So, this isn't quite what I had in mind...

 

[mamaoftwo]

Personal experience here. I think it is hard as parents to see what coaches are trying to accomplish sometimes. There is so much that coaches could be looking for in order to move a kid up. There could be weaknesses that as parents we don't see. Scores are really NOT everything when looking at the next level and the new requirements. Kids scoring 37 in level 4 have clearly mastered level 4, but it does not mean they are ready for level 5. The key is are the uptraining the next level of skills while competing, so the transition to the next level is easy.

The coaches owe you an explanation. You shouldn't have to chase them for it, but often that is what happens. There may be a very logical approach behind repeating, but they need to explain it. You may not agree with the philosophy, in which case you have the right to consider a different gym whose training and advancement philosophy you are comfortable with.

It stinks, I know. Have a conversation with the coaches first. You may see things differently or at least more clearly.

If they'd share goals, I'd honestly be more than happy to listen. I will ask.

She has not been uptraining, at all. All of other groups that compete L4 are. They were allowed to "practice kips" the other day. Without a coach present. The girls tried to teach each other. There was no coach present by them on bars. The coach that had been on bars assisted with another L4 group workin on BWO on beams.

This has happened 3-4 times.

My kid hasn't even trained a cartwheel on the beam in practice (she has it ... taught herself at open gym).

Last week during the combined practice our group sat for a combined total of 30 minutes while waiting their turn on different events. The other, higher L4 groups never waited.

Just things like that getcha after awhile. Trying to stay positive though. If she repeats, hopefully she'll place higher (currently she's usually in the top 30% or so in AA).

 

[LizzieLac]

If they'd share goals, I'd honestly be more than happy to listen. I will ask.

She has not been uptraining, at all. All of other groups that compete L4 are. They were allowed to "practice kips" the other day. Without a coach present. The girls tried to teach each other. There was no coach present by them on bars. The coach that had been on bars assisted with another L4 group workin on BWO on beams.

This has happened 3-4 times.

My kid hasn't even trained a cartwheel on the beam in practice (she has it ... taught herself at open gym).

Last week during the combined practice our group sat for a combined total of 30 minutes while waiting their turn on different events. The other, higher L4 groups never waited.

Just things like that getcha after awhile. Trying to stay positive though. If she repeats, hopefully she'll place higher (currently she's usually in the top 30% or so in AA).

Oh, I hear ya - that is not a recipe for success, in my opinion. I was just trying to give the coaches' side of things. But it sounds like they are failing your DD. I do believe that gyms/coaches make a commitment to coach the kids they take on their team to reach their fullest potential. It doesn't always happen, though.

Nothing wrong with checking other gyms, just in case DD changes her mind. You could also decide to give this gym one more year and see if you feel differently after that time.

 

[cbone]

First of all, scores don't necessarily indicate proficiency- especially 36s. My daughter has scored a 36 in each Level 4 meet she's competed in and I do not yet consider her "proficient" at Level 4 gymnastics. I am hopeful that she will be by the end of the spring season, but I trust my eyeballs and her coaches way more than numbers that judges put on a sheet at meets.

As far as OP's concern that the decision has already been made to compete Level 3 next year- I would share the same concerns. It is almost impossible (from what I have read and observed) to accurately predict a child's growth in gymnastics over 3/4 of a year. If a child is able to compete at a higher level without causing them undue physical and mental stress I am all for it if they have developed the skills to do so. I would be wary of a gym that painted with such a broad brush with respect to an entire group's development in the sport. "Success" is such a strange term in the sport and varies from gym to gym. Some measure it by meet performance. Some measure it by retention. Some measure it by the aggregate growth of individual gymnasts. I think I fall into the latter camp.

 

[kandkfunk]

In our area, holding gymnasts back who are scoring 36s is really frowned upon. Every gym has their own philosophy, but holding kids back so a team can score higher shows poor sportsmanship and goes against the goals outlined by USAG. USAG has set mobility scores at 31.0 for all levels through 7. Most gyms won't move a kid up with that low of an average score, unless they are a fast track type of gym that just tries to move kids through the compulsory levels quickly, but keeping kids back too long is a detriment to the entire sport. Every kid should be able to move at their own pace. That is the beauty of this sport.

My daughter has been doing gymnastics for 11 years and competing for 6 years. We've been to three gyms in that time - 1 closed, 1 wasn't a good fit and now our current gym. We've been there for three years and it's the best gym we've ever been to. The thing that makes this gym different is the communication the owner/head coach has with parents. She is always approachable and makes it a point to have conferences with each family twice per year. She is honest in her assessments and really listens to the parents and gymnasts concerns. I feel very fortunate to have found such a great gym. For me, a coach's who isn't available to parents is a red flag. Personally, I prefer a gym that puts the the needs of the individual gymnast ahead of team scores.

Good luck!

 

[Quadqueen]

First of all, scores don't necessarily indicate proficiency- especially 36s. My daughter has scored a 36 in each Level 4 meet she's competed in and I do not yet consider her "proficient" at Level 4 gymnastics. I am hopeful that she will be by the end of the spring season, but I trust my eyeballs and her coaches way more than numbers that judges put on a sheet at meets.

As far as OP's concern that the decision has already been made to compete Level 3 next year- I would share the same concerns. It is almost impossible (from what I have read and observed) to accurately predict a child's growth in gymnastics over 3/4 of a year. If a child is able to compete at a higher level without causing them undue physical and mental stress I am all for it if they have developed the skills to do so. I would be wary of a gym that painted with such a broad brush with respect to an entire group's development in the sport. "Success" is such a strange term in the sport and varies from gym to gym. Some measure it by meet performance. Some measure it by retention. Some measure it by the aggregate growth of individual gymnasts. I think I fall into the latter camp.

I would not argue that because someone is scoring 36s that they are necessarily ready for the next level, but it does show competency atthe current level. Based on your posts, your daughter is not lacking any major skills, yet you still don’t think she is“proficient” at level 4. It sounds like you are at a gym that wants to see 37+ AA before calling someone “proficient.” Again, different ways of thinking.

 

[cbone]

Our gym's philosophy is that they will move a gymnast up when they have all of their skills for the next level and they are mentally prepared to compete at that level. If that means advancing 3 levels in one year, the HC is all for it. Neither they nor I have a preconceived number in mind to show proficiency (either in scores or placement), but my eyes tell me she's not there yet.

Webster's dictionary defines proficient as "well advanced in an art, occupation, or branch of knowledge". I am so proud of her progress, but she is not "well advanced" yet. She is still shaky and inconsistent with many aspects of her routines. I am not in any way saying that I don't think that she is doing well- she's doing great. But she's not proficient enough to move to Level 5 yet. If her HC says she's ready to compete Level 5 in the spring, I am all for it, but that will take progress on both her Level 4 skills and "having" her Level 5 skills.

Does that make sense?

 

[gymdog]

Also when you look at the state meet results, and a lot of the gyms in our state repeat level 4, the names stay relatively consistent through the compulsories.

What other gyms have this policy? Not any other top 10 teams, to be honest. Some larger teams may have a fair number of repeaters because they couldn't get the level 5 skills consistently, but the top two teams have a lot of first years. One barely repeats any kids, the other repeats some that make me raise my eyebrows a bit, but they also have a lot of one year kids and I assume the "really good" repeats probably had a fear or injury issue. I'd assume any of the top 10 level 4 teams could easily place better if they had a blanket policy of repeating every level 4, but most don't do that. Clearly it works for your gym so I'm not saying this in a judgmental tone, just not sure if it is your impression that this is a common thing. It's not very common and it raises some eyebrows. Several of the top gyms in this state don't even compete every kid at level 4.

I'm a believer that every gym has their own thing and can provide different things. So more power to a gym if repeating to be more successful at compulsories works for them. Some people like one thing, some people like another, and different gyms can fulfill that. People can hold back to win however much they want, first place in this state is pretty much locked down anyway so we all just bear that with good humor anyway. With all these factors of politics, gyms who repeat, whatever, it just is what it is and I think all you can do is focus on technique if you want to stay sane. But that's just how I prefer to look at it. Personally I think everyone has just about lost their minds over level 4.

 

[Azgymmiemom]

A coach at our gym had this way of thinking....
would you rather be the valedictorian at a community college...
...or an above average student at, say, Stanford or Harvard????

That's our philosophy...get em to the higher levels before they decide to quit as a 14 year old-scoring-38's level 5.

I think your dd is getting a bum rap. I would give the benefit of the doubt and talk to the coaches. But if I didn't like what I was hearing (or if the coach won't take the time to talk to you) I'd be looking at other gyms. Good luck to you.

 

[iwannacoach]

If your inclination is to look at other gyms, but you're not taking that step because your dd is happy where she is, consider this........

How is she going to feel 4 years from now if things remain as they are. She's already been told she'll repeat, and I'm assuming that's without consideration for her sucesses from now until late spring, which is about the time I'd be making decisions on move ups. The only way I could coach in that program would be if there was some serious uptraining going on, and repeating L4 to create a great big chunk of time to work on L6 and L7 skills, but that seems unlikely after reading all the OP wrote about the situation.

Here's my thoughts about what this year, and the three to follow hold in store for your dd. She'll end up spending this year and next at L4, and with no uptraining taking place she'll spend another two years at what is now L5. What concerns me most is that L4 is a relative "cakewalk" compared to L5 and L6, and L7 is in a completely different dimension.

While your dd's happiness may now hinge on being where she's at, she may find in 4 years time that all of her dreams and worth while goals where nothing more than a pipedream. She'll be older and wiser, and just may look back at her "repeat years" with some bitter feelings. So while you're considering her happiness, consider it also in the context of the future, as it seems from what you've written she and the group she's in are considered the bill payers, and that's just wrong.

 

[MaryA]

I just said this on another thread, but when we switched gyms, I really tried to leave the choice up to my daughter, because it is "her" sport. But the thing is that she was looking at it from a purely emotional point of view... her coaches were counting on her, she had lots of friends there, etc. Imagine that someday your daughter is in a dead-end job. Her boss doesn't recognize her potential, and she's not being promoted or improving her skills, but she's become comfortable there and she likes the people she works with. What would you want her to do?

This gym is not where you thought you would be right now (due to internal gym changes that were beyond your control). You are driving an hour each way to a gym where it seems (to me) as though your daughter is not being treated as a valuable part of the team (for me, that's the part that gets under my skin. Every girl, at every level, whether she's a superstar or just a kid who loves gym, should be valued for what she brings to the table... and I'm not talking about her tuition check). And as Azgymmiemom pointed out, maybe right now winning the big honking trophy means more to her than progressing through the levels, learning new skills, etc. But when she looks back, it is hardly going to matter. DD was AA state champ at level 4 (in her particular age group, at her particular meet... we all know how that goes...) but do you think that even crosses her mind now as a level 7? No, she's thinking about having her own floor music and whether she will ever get her giants and stuff like that.

I'm rambling horribly, but I think what I'm trying to say is that nobody is going to think your a "gym hopper" if you look elsewhere, and your daughter will likely not only "forgive" you for "making" her switch, but she's likely to be grateful in the long run.

 

[ellabella]

I feel like DD was in a similar situation last year. The gym decided at the end of the season that everyone would repeat level 5. DD had scored very well in level 5. Scores are not everything, but if you can score a high 38 in level 5 and you have 9 months to get ready for level 6, I feel like you should at least be given the chance to try. So we decided to look elsewhere. It worked out and DD was able to successfully move on to level 6 and has done well. I'm glad we made the decision to move and I have no regrets. Maybe she could be scoring 39's in level 5 right now and be the level 5 state champion on every event and the AA, but really she just wants to be a gymnast.

 

[wallinbl]

Scores are not everything, but if you can score a high 38 in level 5 and you have 9 months to get ready for level 6, I feel like you should at least be given the chance to try.

They're not everything, and there are many factors, but getting a 38+ means it's time to move up 99.9% of the time.

 

[lhmom]

At DD's gym, the only level that they repeat is level 4. When they are level 5 and above, the HC usually determines move-ups based on where the girls are skill wise. However, there is always uptraining going on and decisions for compulsory move-ups are not made until May when optional season is over. There are a few things that would bother me if I were in your position: lack of up training and the fact that coaches won't be getting the finalized skill sets in the new levels until May 2013. Why make such a call now? There's always a possibility of other changes being made before then (slim, I know but still). And how can girls get the skills if they do not have an opportunity to work on them? I hope that talking with the HC can give you a clearer picture.