WAG Repeating Levels

[armbmom]

After reading the Mobility post and watching my dd's meet this weekend, why on earth do coaches have girls who have won state championships repeat a compulsory level 2-3 times? Why would a parent agree to that? I get it if a kid really struggled and can't get the skills, but come on, even with the routine changes, if they won 3 out of 4 events and won aa, why repeat?

 

[Aussie_coach]

Sometimes the kid is fabulous at their level skills but not able to do the skills for the level above. A great example is a level 3 (new level 3) who may have everything perfected but may not be ready for level 4 because she doesn't have her kip yet.

 

[gymdog]

Personally I think it's a rare occurrence for "average" age kids in the big age groups to be good enough to win their level but truly unable to get the skills for the next level. You have to do a lot more than just have the skills down pretty well to win, at most state meets even in L3 and 4 you're going to see straight casts well above horizontal, etc. Here are some example of the level of competition "pre-kip" which is inching up all over the US. There's something wrong if a kid can do all this and can't get a kip in 6 months.







And none of them are even from Texas or California

Now there might be some age groups where there's only a few kids and you could win by being the one who doesn't fall...but not much anymore in a lot of states. I can definitely believe there are kids who can do well, like getting a 36, and not be ready to move up, but being state champion nowadays in a lot of places is like 37-39 range. You have to be pretty good, and fairly mature about all the details and focus, etc to achieve that level at such a young age. I would automatically find it questionable that they could do that well but not physically get a kip or whatever.

Of course, I will gladly grant exceptions for fear issues or maturity (i.e. a 6 year old who won't turn 7 until beginning of season, might be physically capable of all the new Level 4 skills but maturity wise coaches would rather not have her jump to the high bar, go over the vault table...same for the 7 year old who might be able to do back tucks and flyaways but coaches feel she is not ready mentally to focus 100% of the time and compete it). BUT with the maturity thing, I find as compulsories have grown increasingly complex and more competitive, that's just not as common anymore for the kids at the top. It used to be a kid could win with a lot of amplitude/raw talent/simply being able to perform the whole routine together because it was common for kids to compete missing skills and/or connections. Nowadays it takes a lot of polish and your top compulsory athletes are generally pretty focused, even the 6 year olds.

There are the kids who really "turns it on" when competing and are much more focused than in practice...but again with the routines being more complex the last two cycles, even this often isn't enough to win everything if they're all over the place in practice.

Fear issues, however, can be a problem regardless of raw physical ability so that's a separate story.

 

[happychaos]

At DD's old gym there was virtually no uptraining done. There was a very intense focus on every detail of the compulsory routines. The girls were very successful as a team and as individuals. But, many girls would then have to repeat b/c they could not get the skills to move up between Jan-Apr, which is the time the gym allotted them to get the skills. I believe most parents would go along with this b/c 1) their kids were winning 2) they don't know any better.

There are a lot of coaches and parents who would rather have a girl place in the top 3 at level 3, than middle of the pack in level 4.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Gym dog, I only watched the first video but this girl would probably not even place in the competitions that we have in Australia at the same level (our level 4 is the same sort of skills as you old level 4, new level 5).

To win at comps they need to be doing consistent good body shape casts to 45 degree's above horizontal, they need to be hitting 180 degree split leaps and jumps on beam. And to even meet the basic requirements they need 180 split leaps on floor and at least solid horizontal casts on bars. Yet its the same basic skill level (ie round off on floor, not even round off flic, backward roll to front support).

If she did that cast on bars in the next level up she would loose severe points. Therre are gyms with level 4 girls training 20 hours a week or so and with level 5's doing 25 hours a week (at least in my area).

So you can understand why it does not shock me to have a kid do levels 2-3 times, even if they are quite good.

(Note - they are looking at changing the whole australian levels system in 2015, which is certainly well overdue )

 

[Quadqueen]

Gym dog, I only watched the first video but this girl would probably not even place in the competitions that we have in Australia at the same level (our level 4 is the same sort of skills as you old level 4, new level 5).

To win at comps they need to be doing consistent good body shape casts to 45 degree's above horizontal, they need to be hitting 180 degree split leaps and jumps on beam. And to even meet the basic requirements they need 180 split leaps on floor and at least solid horizontal casts on bars. Yet its the same basic skill level (ie round off on floor, not even round off flic, backward roll to front support).

If she did that cast on bars in the next level up she would loose severe points. Therre are gyms with level 4 girls training 20 hours a week or so and with level 5's doing 25 hours a week (at least in my area).

So you can understand why it does not shock me to have a kid do levels 2-3 times, even if they are quite good.

(Note - they are looking at changing the whole australian levels system in 2015, which is certainly well overdue )

It sounds like your old level 4/new level 3 is not at all the same then, since in USAG there is no 45 degrees above horizontal cast requirement, nor a 180 degree split leap requirement at that level. That's like comparing apples to oranges. She is doing what that level/routine requires in the video.

 

[ginnymac]

And none of them are even from Texas or California

Now there might be some age groups where there's only a few kids and you could win by being the one who doesn't fall...but not much anymore in a lot of states. I can definitely believe there are kids who can do well, like getting a 36, and not be ready to move up, but being state champion nowadays in a lot of places is like 37-39 range. You have to be pretty good, and fairly mature about all the details and focus, etc to achieve that level at such a young age. I would automatically find it questionable that they could do that well but not physically get a kip or whatever.

Holy cow! That 10.0 bar routine at level 4....impressive!

 

[armbmom]

My thing is though, the girls from this gym seem to be pros at the compulsory levels. Most girls seem to compete 2-3 years in all the levels (3-5).

 

[ginnymac]

Yes. Don't know what professional compulsory will get them. That girl doing the 10.0 routine most likely was capable of the level 6 routine at that time--at least. Don't you think??

 

[txgymfan]

Aussie coach,

The girl from the first video is amazing. If she would not have placed then I agree the levels must have different requirements. Off Topic but interesting, Her mother posts on CB and her videos are public on YouTube. This spring Sophia tied for first in level 8 regionals after missing training for all last summer due to an injury.

 

[gymdog]

Gym dog, I only watched the first video but this girl would probably not even place in the competitions that we have in Australia at the same level (our level 4 is the same sort of skills as you old level 4, new level 5).

To win at comps they need to be doing consistent good body shape casts to 45 degree's above horizontal, they need to be hitting 180 degree split leaps and jumps on beam. And to even meet the basic requirements they need 180 split leaps on floor and at least solid horizontal casts on bars. Yet its the same basic skill level (ie round off on floor, not even round off flic, backward roll to front support).

If she did that cast on bars in the next level up she would loose severe points. Therre are gyms with level 4 girls training 20 hours a week or so and with level 5's doing 25 hours a week (at least in my area).

So you can understand why it does not shock me to have a kid do levels 2-3 times, even if they are quite good.

(Note - they are looking at changing the whole australian levels system in 2015, which is certainly well overdue )

Is the goal of the Australian competition you're speaking about the same as USAG JO level? Seems to me like it is closer to our TOPs/Hope program. Sophia continues to be a successful gymnast in the US elite developmental stream today for her age, which is quite competitive, so I find that a bit curious. Of course most L3/4s here go closer to 10 hours a week and aren't expected to do 180 leaps at age 6, but I would say 6 year old Sophia's leaps were quite impressive for her age nonetheless. Perhaps you are talking about older girls in these levels. Sophia is very young in that video and I cannot imagine that there would be so many gymnasts that age better than she performed.

 

[GymSurvivor]

Personally I think it's a rare occurrence for "average" age kids in the big age groups to be good enough to win their level but truly unable to get the skills for the next level. You have to do a lot more than just have the skills down pretty well to win, at most state meets even in L3 and 4 you're going to see straight casts well above horizontal, etc. Here are some example of the level of competition "pre-kip" which is inching up all over the US. There's something wrong if a kid can do all this and can't get a kip in 6 months.

Love the judges in that 10.0 video!! Looks like they were just itching to give out a 10.0 and just waiting for someone to earn it!!

 

[saddlupasb]

Well example number one is working level 9 now I believe?

 

[PalmTree]

I just don't understand the point of holding kids back so they can win the Level 4 Olympics. It really irritates me as a coach, because my kids and I work our butts off and get beat by kids who look like robots, add flourishes to the routines that are NOT in the text, and can adequately perform routines three levels above them!!! Okay so I know there are exceptions. I just hate to see my ultra talented, amazing little level 4s get their 9.2 scores crushed by "those" teams. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I just can't hold my kids back like that!!

 

[SignHere]

I had the experience of seeing the child in example number 1 at a TOPs test this summer and meeting her mother. The child is definitely amazing, and the mother was very nice! The mother told me the Hymie is currently training Level 9, on track to compete it this fall. She definitely did not repeat any levels as she was testing as a 10 year old!

 

[armbmom]

My daughter doesn't understand why her 9 on beam at the first meet was only good enough for 8th place. 6 of the 7 above her were level 4 pros that train 15 - 20 hours and are probably training level 7s. Oh well. I keep telling her to only work on improving each meet and not worry about scores and placements, while I silently keep my fingers crossed that we don't run into the other team too many times during the season.

I know that there are some truly talented kids that might repeat a level while training a higher level because of age, and I get that. I also know that there might be some kids who repeat because of fear or lacking a kip. What I question is when it is an obvious gym philosophy to hold kids back to ensure team championships.

 

[iwannacoach]

I just don't understand the point of holding kids back so they can win the Level 4 Olympics. ......... I just hate to see my ultra talented, amazing little level 4s get their 9.2 scores crushed by "those" teams. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I just can't hold my kids back like that!!

I feel your pain. I loathe competing against with clubs that pack their compulsory levels by instituting move up requirements that are fashioned to slow their gymnasts' progress from one level to the next.

At DD's old gym there was virtually no uptraining done....... But, many girls would then have to repeat b/c they could not get the skills to move up between Jan-Apr, which is the time the gym allotted them to get the skills....... There are a lot of coaches and parents who would rather have a girl place in the top 3 at level 3, than middle of the pack in level 4.

I doubt these measures are put in place for the benefit of the kids, unless the intent is to keep them from being taught optional level skill by coaches who don't care, don't know, and don't want to find out. I don't want it said that I don't believe in requirements, but rather that the requirements are a two way street that allows hard working kids to join together with hard working coaches to make it work.

Palmtree..... I'll guess that your experience is similar to mine. The clubs that pack the compulsories do well until the skills get interesting..... and that's when coaches like you and me begin to look pretty good to the kids and parents from the "other club."

 

[happychaos]

Gym dog, I only watched the first video but this girl would probably not even place in the competitions that we have in Australia at the same level (our level 4 is the same sort of skills as you old level 4, new level 5).

To win at comps they need to be doing consistent good body shape casts to 45 degree's above horizontal, they need to be hitting 180 degree split leaps and jumps on beam. And to even meet the basic requirements they need 180 split leaps on floor and at least solid horizontal casts on bars. Yet its the same basic skill level (ie round off on floor, not even round off flic, backward roll to front support).

If she did that cast on bars in the next level up she would loose severe points. Therre are gyms with level 4 girls training 20 hours a week or so and with level 5's doing 25 hours a week (at least in my area).

So you can understand why it does not shock me to have a kid do levels 2-3 times, even if they are quite good.

(Note - they are looking at changing the whole australian levels system in 2015, which is certainly well overdue )

Aussie coach, I am curious as to why your levels are set up that way. Is it to build solid fundamentals? What advantage is there to having a girl with no backhandspring cast to 45 degrees above horizontal or have a 180 degree split leap on beam? So girls repeat levels 2 or 3 times with a back roll to support and round-off? I must be missing something.....

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Australian level four is made of kids who are generally between the ages of 9 and 12, so comparing the best of these kids to a six year old is just silly. Don't worry there are plenty of very average level fours who can't cast to horizontal and can just leap with 90 degrees of split. Clearly the American system is workable for the good clubs, meanwhile Australia is not sending anyone to worlds because they have no hope.

 

[happychaos]

Thanks Pineapple! I'm just thinking my DD would have quit long ago if her main focus was casting and leaping. She likes to flip!