WAG Repeating Levels

[Aussie_coach]

Quadqueen, we don't have a requirement for a cast to be that high. It is a bonus skill, so if the kid casts to 45 degree's above horizontal or if they hit 180 degree splits in their beam routine then they are awarded a 0.2 bonus to their start value. My point wasn't to compare our levels to yours it was just making a statement on the difficulty of our competitions. The divisions can have as many as 120 girls in it and they only give out to 6 places. I was explaining why my opinion on repeating levels was different to the average USA opinion from an earlier post.

Happy chaos I agree with you completely. But it is designed for insurance reasons I think. You have to have specific advanced coaching qualifications to teach any sort of flight skill or flipping skill so there are other areas that are focused on so more gy,s can do it without the most experienced coaches.

Pineapple_lump we do pretty well competitively considering our lower population. You are right our level 4's tend to be older than yours and yes 8-12 is pretty common. While 6 is pretty much unheard of for a level 4. But this is not related to competing internationally. We have a whole separate levels system for kids who aim to compete internationally. They have their own separate steam and levels system and train under the watchful eye of the national coach. They are indentified early on and trained at High Performance centre's

 

[Aussie_coach]

Gym dog, our levels system in Australia is actually designed to be more recreational. Despite the high training hours and high expectation of skills there is no intention of these kids ever competing internationally.

 

[my4buffaloes]

I know how you feel. Last season my dd was beat by a girl that scored a 10.0 on beam. It wasn't quite as impressive when we found out she had competed a level higher just 2 days before in the same meet, then dropped back to compete at my dd's level to give the gym an easy win. It isn't right and I would not let my dd do that even if the coaches pushed for it.

 

[Mustanggal99]

I just don't understand the point of holding kids back so they can win the Level 4 Olympics. It really irritates me as a coach, because my kids and I work our butts off and get beat by kids who look like robots, add flourishes to the routines that are NOT in the text, and can adequately perform routines three levels above them!!! Okay so I know there are exceptions. I just hate to see my ultra talented, amazing little level 4s get their 9.2 scores crushed by "those" teams. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I just can't hold my kids back like that!!

I feel the exact same way! It drives me up the wall! Glad I'm not the only one feeling this.

 

[Mustanggal99]

I know how you feel. Last season my dd was beat by a girl that scored a 10.0 on beam. It wasn't quite as impressive when we found out she had competed a level higher just 2 days before in the same meet, then dropped back to compete at my dd's level to give the gym an easy win. It isn't right and I would not let my dd do that even if the coaches pushed for it.

How was that allowed? I thought once they competed a higher level they weren't allowed to move back down.

 

[happychaos]

I know how you feel. Last season my dd was beat by a girl that scored a 10.0 on beam. It wasn't quite as impressive when we found out she had competed a level higher just 2 days before in the same meet, then dropped back to compete at my dd's level to give the gym an easy win. It isn't right and I would not let my dd do that even if the coaches pushed for it.

Where is the "DISLIKE" button?!?!?!?!

 

[Natasha]

How was that allowed? I thought once they competed a higher level they weren't allowed to move back down.

They can move levels within a season, but once they reach either the "designation date" or sectionals (depending on the state) they have to compete at that level. We had a girl on dd's team who competed first meet of the year at L9, then had an injury, came back from the injury and competed L8 for the last half of the season. In this case, the rule worked out well, but I think there are some gyms out there who may abuse it.

 

[gymdog]

I had the experience of seeing the child in example number 1 at a TOPs test this summer and meeting her mother. The child is definitely amazing, and the mother was very nice! The mother told me the Hymie is currently training Level 9, on track to compete it this fall. She definitely did not repeat any levels as she was testing as a 10 year old!

She didn't repeat any levels (despite an injury that required months completely off of gymnastics) - none of my examples did. The little girl from MGA is a bit younger, but at least a level 7 by now from what I recall. Sophia's a 9, and the third girl is already a level 10. I wanted to show how high the level of polish, control, and mastery is for the 1st place AA in most states, to speak to the idea that some kids are good enough to win the AA in level 3/4 but can't get the skills to move up to 4/5. That's just pretty rare. All of them are on track to compete internationally, of course the US system for that is insanely competitive, because we don't have separate streams for kids at the age in the video. So I would agree if there are better kids in the Australian rec stream then it would benefit their national team to change their level system.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I wanted to show how high the level of polish, control, and mastery is for the 1st place AA in most states, to speak to the idea that some kids are good enough to win the AA in level 3/4 but can't get the skills to move up to 4/5. That's just pretty rare.
==

Not sure I understand, are you saying that any kid who wins AA at state should have been moved up, or just those kids?

 

[gymdog]

Not sure I understand, are you saying that any kid who wins AA at state should have been moved up, or just those kids?

I am only talking about compulsories. Obviously there are girls winning level 10 AA that aren't moving up to elite. I'm sure there is some example out there of kids who win the state AA in the middle age groups but cannot do any higher skills (dropping the youngest for maturity reasons and oldest because they are usually smaller groups) but I doubt it is very widespread to be able to win the state AA and physically unable to move up within 6 months with appropriate training. For example, I can think of one recent instance in my state and I'm quite sure the kid had the skills, but they retain a certain # of kids, especially younger ones, per year so they are always in the top 2 team score. We have one gym in our state that has a policy of old level 4 ALWAYS repeating. Whatever. Keep in mind our season goes from Nov-late May. Doing two state meets at a level means two entire school years.

 

[Datgymcoach]

Everything is relative. Old level 4 state champion to new level 4 is not a done deal. I have an old level 4 state champion who has made her kip on lb a handful of times but no where near consistently. Same child cannot hs on beam to vertical at all especially since it is now expected to be done in the middle of the beam... Ugh. She is working new 4 but if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. We don't do privates for philosophical reasons so if she can't get it together soon... Yet she was a state champion in your/our state Gymdog.

 

[skschlag]

I think it is hard to judge. I know there are some gyms that do sandbag, but many times, there is a reason. My son's gym got accused of sandbagging when he repeated 5. But he repeated 5 for very valid reasons. As his coach said "he coudl do level 6, but it would be by chucking skills just to get them rather than having good form. It would be better to repeat 5 where we can continue to get these basics." Now he is cruising and doign great.

I am just saying that maybe we need to not automatically assume that the repeat is to win.

 

[gymgal]

Everything is relative. Old level 4 state champion to new level 4 is not a done deal. I have an old level 4 state champion who has made her kip on lb a handful of times but no where near consistently. Same child cannot hs on beam to vertical at all especially since it is now expected to be done in the middle of the beam... Ugh. She is working new 4 but if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. We don't do privates for philosophical reasons so if she can't get it together soon... Yet she was a state champion in your/our state Gymdog.

I think the question becomes... Should they be moved up anyway? So they don't have 1 or 2 skills, and yes their scores will certainly be lower in the higher level but reality is they probably will still score higher than most in the new level because they are so good on their other skills. . should they be allowed to stay back, ensuring another champion year? I see both sides of the debate and I think it needs to be decided on an individual basis, which is why I don't like the hard lines odd "no ___, no move up".

 

[Datgymcoach]

Gymgal (sorry can't figure how to quote previous message)
In my state I have to say no they should not still move up. Unless our goal is for children to quit gymnastics. If they don't have a kip they are looking at a 6 on bars and that is not something that will keep most kids in the sport.
I think a pertinent question is should they move to Excel instead of repeating,
The child I referenced will move to Excel if she cannot kip consistently as she was already a 2nd year at that level. After her first year (middle of the pack) she was not near ready for what is expected in our state for the next level.
We are not a top gym in this state, but individually our children do well. If ever I hear gripes about powerhouse gyms in our state I squash it right away as we just don't do sour grapes. You don't like getting beat? Then work hard, bring it and beat em!

 

[Deleted member 15064]

I've only been involved for 2 seasons in my state, and I almost purposely stay "uninformed" so that I don't overdue my role as gymnastics parent. Yet, it didn't take long at all as a complete "newbie" to recognize local gyms that sandbag (didn't have a name for this till I joined CB).
I am very grateful that our gym is not interested in team wins over individual progression.
I also agree (even as a parent of a lvl 4 state AA champion in the youngest age group) that there would be little explanation for a repeat season for compulsory AA's.
Our season runs a whole school yr. The lvl of mastery needed by States appears to be fairly competitive. To repeat a state champion @ compulsory lvl opens itself up to questions if club motive.

 

[lovofu]

Hi all....surprised to see Sophia in a video in this thread She is now 10...was barely seven in that video. She competed her first level 4 meet that previous fall after 10 weeks on team. She did level 4/level 5/Level 6 and 7 the third year and level 8 last year after 10 weeks off due to a spinal cord injury, now training level 9 and preparing for her National Tops test. She has many of her level 10 beam skills. All I can say is I'm glad she is not in Australia if she wouldn't have placed with her level 4 routines . She loves this sport...wants to coach when she grows up! Just loving watching her grow and learn new things!

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I feel as though if your gymnast cannot be competitive (as in missing basic level requirements) than why would you spend money and time traveling to a meet where the child will likely only feel less confident after? I used to feel differently but after watching my DS last season bring up last place because he did not have all his L5 skills I changed my mind. It is a lot of money for meet fees and entry fees and travel expenses. Save that money and invest more time in gaining those the skills needed. However, if a gymnast CAN be competitive in said level a gym should NOT have that gymanst compete beneath her just to pad the scores for the gym.

 

[Natasha]

Unless you know for a fact the specific reasons that a child is repeating a level, it is hard to know if a gym really is sandbagging or not. When my dd was L7, there was a girl from a gym who always had state champs who was repeating L7. She was the L7 state champ the year before (highest score of ALL age groups). Additionally, her routines were packed with difficulty (all L8 requirements). We thought this was a case of sandbagging, but as it turned out, we found out her gym has very strict rules and policies. In order for her to compete L8 she would have been required to increase her training hours significantly and she and her family did not want to commit to the increased hours at her age, so she was told she would have to compete L7 again.

 

[Faith]

Unless you know for a fact the specific reasons that a child is repeating a level, it is hard to know if a gym really is sandbagging or not. When my dd was L7, there was a girl from a gym who always had state champs who was repeating L7. She was the L7 state champ the year before (highest score of ALL age groups). Additionally, her routines were packed with difficulty (all L8 requirements). We thought this was a case of sandbagging, but as it turned out, we found out her gym has very strict rules and policies. In order for her to compete L8 she would have been required to increase her training hours significantly and she and her family did not want to commit to the increased hours at her age, so she was told she would have to compete L7 again.

What's the point in that though? Her routines are L8, so the only difference is ticking the L8 box on the entry form rather than L7.

I wouldn't say our old gym was sandbagging, as such. Heck they only put the kids in one or two competitions a year if they're lucky. But everything had to be polished to dazzling before they'd even enter. They kept a lot of kids at the lower levels, polishing each skill before they could progress. So you had many kids competing at the lowest level for several years, that had the ability, talent and dedication to gain higher level skills and routines easily, had more training hours been dedicated to up training. Considering the older kids were on 20 hours/week, that's a lot of time polishing.

 

[gymgal]

Gymgal (sorry can't figure how to quote previous message)
In my state I have to say no they should not still move up. Unless our goal is for children to quit gymnastics. If they don't have a kip they are looking at a 6 on bars and that is not something that will keep most kids in the sport.!

Dd scored out of 5/6 (competed Xcel) so I never sat through L5 meets but 6 for a score seems really low. I know there are 2 kips in the routine but if a gymnast attempts both, and otherwise has an excellent routine, how could 4 points be taken off? And I have also heard sometimes it is better to just leave out the skill so that you don't get the form deductions as well, but I don't know hire true that is in reality. But if the score would really be that low, then they don't have to compete that event. If they are ready for the other events, then they should compete them at the appropriate level.

This is one of the reasons why I would like to see mandatory move up scores.