Round off back tucks and layouts... going backwards

[henrik541]

So, long story short, I started practicing round off back tucks, my coach said it doesn't look like a back tuck at all, so i should start doing pikes, I can't pull up my pikes, so they end up being layouts.

So, now I'm training back layouts, but whatever the position is, I can't seem to get rotation for the flip.
These are the problems my coaches keep pointing:

1. My round off is crooked and short.
2. My arms don't go right up after the round off.
3. I can't tuck properly, it's more like a "puck". Layouts are like whipbacks.
4. MOST ANNOYING: Everytime I throw my arms up to gain height, my back bends (like in a bhs) instead of keeping straight.

These are the main problems I can think of right now. What can I do to correct them? Specially the last one!

 

[gymluvr33]

For the last one...try stretching your feet out behind you more in your round off. If your feet are underneath you like the would be to go into a back handspring and then you try to set, you are going to go more back than you will up. Having your feet behind you more forces you to go up. This should help #4 and maybe #2. Just remember to keep setting, but also to stretch your feet behind you

 

[iwannacoach]

First problem first.....fix your round-off, it will make the next problem easier to fix, and that helps everything else that follows.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Maybe consider finding another coach. The idea that you were told to train round off piles because your tucks were poor and now you are doing layouts is actually quite scary.

these skills can result in very serious injuries if they are not executed consistently. A good coach wouldn't a
allow you to put any skill on your round off until it was of a good standard.

 

[henrik541]

...try stretching your feet out behind you more in your round off...

thanks, i'll try this as soon as I can

...fix your round-off...

how can i do this? i tried everything i can think of, but i always end up rotating to early and putting my hands down one at a time and off the line.

Maybe consider finding another coach. The idea that you were told to train round off piles because your tucks were poor and now you are doing layouts is actually quite scary.

Well, thanks, but this is not an option. I do acro, things are a bit different. I trust my coaches 95%. they told me to do layouts because I jump really high and have good rotation, but I can't think about tucking or piking in the middle of the flip.

 

[mado4]

thanks, i'll try this as soon as I can

how can i do this? i tried everything i can think of, but i always end up rotating to early and putting my hands down one at a time and off the line.



Well, thanks, but this is not an option. I do acro, things are a bit different. I trust my coaches 95%. they told me to do layouts because I jump really high and have good rotation, but I can't think about tucking or piking in the middle of the flip.

Try to do round off's over an obstacle so you are forced to make it bigger and to hold your hollow shape. IF that is the problem. Your bending back problem could be a lot of reasons..video would be nice…just one thought…lay down on the ground on your back put your arms back so they touch the floor. NOW can you do this with your back touching the floor or are you already bending ??? If you can't do that you have a flexibility problem if you can do it but not hold it you have a strength problem…try to show us a video…right now it could be 1000000 things

 

[iwannacoach]

Your concept of how a round-off works.....and how to make it work needs adjustment. I have a "drill in a jar" I'll send you as soon as I find it.

 

[gasrgoose]

I can't seem to get rotation for the flip.

I jump really high and have good rotation,

Hmmmm????????

 

[Kiwi]

Your concept of how a round-off works.....and how to make it work needs adjustment. I have a "drill in a jar" I'll send you as soon as I find it.

Please can you post your round-off drill so we can all learn from it. I learn a lot here from reading the advice of the experienced coaches.

 

[iwannacoach]

So here it is. I some times call it the "golden ticket" because a good start makes for an easier finish on a tumbling run....and who doesn't need that?

This is the basic drill that I've gotten amazing results with. I've used this with kids tumbling at every level, and even those with advanced tumbling skills benifit from it. The best part is that anyone who's got a reason to think they're doing a round-off can learn how to work the drill.

One kid I sent it to is going level 9 this season, and her feedback about what it's done for her tumbling is very positive. I think it's a statement of how overlooked the round-off is, and shows that many coaches fail to understand it's purpose and how to teach them. I have to add that an adequate cartwheel should be learned brfore transitioning into round-offs.


Get a folding mat to start your tumbling from

Open it up so you can stand at the edge of a single layer

Lift up your lunge/front leg, place your arms and tension your body as if you were in a handstand and squeeze your lower core.

Slowly lean forward until you fall off balance...put your foot down and continue as if you have no control over your momentum...kick your backleg straight up behind you as you let your handstand position fall into the floor. Make sure you kick that back leg with as much energy as possible.

The idea here is to let gravity make you move forward...let gravity bring your hands to the floor, so no bending down to reach for the floor.

Up to this point you save a ton of energy by using free energy from gravity. This will allow you to concentrate on keeping your torso tight and in the strongest position possible.

You could youtube "olympic style weightlifting" and see the posture used to support the weight overhead at the end of the lift. That is the only posture that provides, oh lets say a 150 pound lifter to hold like about 350 pounds overhead. I like to call it power posture, and believe me it helps somewhere on every event.....

Ok so back to the drill.....If you put your priority on falling as long as you dare, kicking your back leg with as much energy as you can give it while pushing off from your front foot, your hips will turn just a little bit an instant before your first hand hits the floor and continue to turn as you get further upside down. By the time your second hand hits you'll have enough turn energy to finish the round-off square after you push off with your second hand. The second hand doesn't just push...it blocks like the way you do in a Tsukahara vault, and with the power posture you've so loyally maintained that block will stand you up really well. So it's not really a snap down, it's a pop up or push up that works well with your leg's momentum through the hanstand, and it is that momentum that swings your legs down during and after the second hand's blocking effort.

Do the drill with a mat to fall from, place another mat next to where you'll be landing so you just have to step to the side to get on the 2nd mat so you can just do round offs in a circle so to speak. You'll be able to do a bunch of them in no time at all.

Graduate to a two layer height, and beyond, as you become adjusted to each level. It may take a few days or more to get up to four layers (6 inches or 15cm), and that's as high as you should go.

For the first few times you should tumble r-o bhs immediately afterwards if they are a part of your normal work-out. If you've done the drill right your round off will give you a power boost, and your tumbling will be either faster or easier, so be ready for the increased speed.




Okay

This is the basic drill that I've gotten amazing results with. I've used this with kids tumbling at every level, and even those with advanced tumbling skills benifit from it. The best part is that anyone who's got a reason to think they're doing a round-off can learn how to work the drill.One kid I sent it to is going level 9 this season, and her feedback about what it's done for her tumbling is very positive. I think it's a statement of how overlooked the round-off is, and shows that many coaches fail to understand it's purpose and how to teach them. I have to add that an adequate cartwheel should be learned brfore transitioning into round-offs. Get a folding mat to start your tumbling fromOpen it up so you can stand at the edge of a single layerLift up your lunge/front leg, place your arms and tension your body as if you were in a handstand and squeeze your lower core.Slowly lean forward until you fall off balance...put your foot down and continue as if you have no control over your momentum...kick your backleg straight up behind you as you let your handstand position fall into the floor. Make sure you kick that back leg with as much energy as possible.The idea here is to let gravity make you move forward...let gravity bring your hands to the floor, so no bending down to reach for the floor.Up to this point you save a ton of energy by using free energy from gravity. This will allow you to concentrate on keeping your torso tight and in the strongest position possible.You could youtube "olympic style weightlifting" and see the posture used to support the weight overhead at the end of the lift. That is the only posture that provides, oh lets say a 150 pound lifter to hold like about 350 pounds overhead. I like to call it power posture, and believe me it helps somewhere on every event.....Ok so back to the drill.....If you put your priority on falling as long as you dare, kicking your back leg with as much energy as you can give it while pushing off from your front foot, your hips will turn just a little bit an instant before your first hand hits the floor and continue to turn as you get further upside down. By the time your second hand hits you'll have enough turn energy to finish the round-off square after you push off with your second hand. The second hand doesn't just push...it blocks, and with the power posture you've so loyally maintained that block will stand you up really well. So it's not really a snap down, it's a pop up or push up that works well with your leg's momentum through the hanstand, and it is that momentum that swings your legs down during and after the second hand's blocking effort.Do the drill with a mat to fall from, place another mat next to where you'll be landing so you just have to step to the side to get on the 2nd mat so you can just do round offs in a circle so to speak. You'll be able to do a bunch of them in no time at all.Graduate to a two layer height, and beyond, as you become adjusted to each level. It may take a few days or more to get up to four layers (6 inches or 15cm), and that's as high as you should go.For the first few times you should tumble r-o bhs immediately afterwards if they are a part of your normal work-out. If you've done the drill right your round off will give you a power boost, and your tumbling will be either faster or easier, so be ready for the increased speed.

 

[iwannacoach]

This is the basic drill that I've gotten amazing results with. I've used this with kids tumbling at every level, and even those with advanced tumbling skills benifit from it. The best part is that anyone who's got a reason to think they're doing a round-off can learn how to work the drill.

One kid I sent it to is going level 9 this season, and her feedback about what it's done for her tumbling is very positive. I think it's a statement of how overlooked the round-off is, and shows that many coaches fail to understand it's purpose and how to teach them. I have to add that an adequate cartwheel should be learned brfore transitioning into round-offs.


Get a folding mat to start your tumbling from

Open it up so you can stand at the edge of a single layer

Lift up your lunge/front leg, place your arms and tension your body as if you were in a handstand and squeeze your lower core.

Slowly lean forward until you fall off balance...put your foot down and continue as if you have no control over your momentum...kick your backleg straight up behind you as you let your handstand position fall into the floor. Make sure you kick that back leg with as much energy as possible.

The idea here is to let gravity make you move forward...let gravity bring your hands to the floor, so no bending down to reach for the floor.

Up to this point you save a ton of energy by using free energy from gravity. This will allow you to concentrate on keeping your torso tight and in the strongest position possible.

You could youtube "olympic style weightlifting" and see the posture used to support the weight overhead at the end of the lift. That is the only posture that provides, oh lets say a 150 pound lifter to hold like about 350 pounds overhead. I like to call it power posture, and believe me it helps somewhere on every event.....

Ok so back to the drill.....If you put your priority on falling as long as you dare, kicking your back leg with as much energy as you can give it while pushing off from your front foot, your hips will turn just a little bit an instant before your first hand hits the floor and continue to turn as you get further upside down. By the time your second hand hits you'll have enough turn energy to finish the round-off square after you push off with your second hand. The second hand doesn't just push...it blocks, and with the power posture you've so loyally maintained that block will stand you up really well. So it's not really a snap down, it's a pop up or push up that works well with your leg's momentum through the hanstand, and it is that momentum that swings your legs down during and after the second hand's blocking effort.

Do the drill with a mat to fall from, place another mat next to where you'll be landing so you just have to step to the side to get on the 2nd mat so you can just do round offs in a circle so to speak. You'll be able to do a bunch of them in no time at all.

Graduate to a two layer height, and beyond, as you become adjusted to each level. It may take a few days or more to get up to four layers (6 inches or 15cm), and that's as high as you should go.

For the first few times you should tumble r-o bhs immediately afterwards if they are a part of your normal work-out. If you've done the drill right your round off will give you a power boost, and your tumbling will be either faster or easier, so be ready for the increased speed.

 

[Kiwi]

Thanks - can you clarify how the mat is used? You stand on the edge of the mat to start, then your front leg and hands land on the floor, not the mat...?

 

[iwannacoach]

Thanks - can you clarify how the mat is used? You stand on the edge of the mat to start, then your front leg and hands land on the floor, not the mat...?

You got it right. You start both feet on the elevated surface provided by the mat. Put your arms up into a handstand position and lift the leg you put forward into the lunge position to horizontal of just below. That is the starting position. While in this position you need to concentrate on keeping square, aligned, as tight as possible through your core, with your shoulders and arms tensioned as you would need to be to hold a handstand times two. In this posture the round-off can be done in a straighter line, and your body can bounce off the floor through the handstand when you're that tight. I like to compare it to a stick which will bounce vs. a...I don't know, a stick made of 20 small segments held loosely together with rubber bands along it's length.

So you start in the above position, and let your body fall forward, and when you've really lost your balance your front foot touches the floor, not by reaching for it....but by falling into it. Your back leg kicks straight up as if trying to kick to a handstand, only much harder and faster...like as hard/fast as you can. It's pretty easy to get that part, the momentum created in the "fall" requires a fast kick to keep from splatting on your face, but it's pretty safe, as you know before you start that you're going to go upside down.

The drill also teaches that the turn into the round off is not created by "reaching around", but comes as a "freebie" when the back leg kicks to the point your hips are inclined to turn out of square. That "free turn" continues through the course of the round off with little concious effort, and is accentuated by the blocking action that takes place when the skill rotates to the point where the second hand hits the floor.....and it gets there with-out reaching, and that's a good thing because reaching destroys your posture and makes you fall off your hands intead of pushing off your hands.

The bottom line is starting with only a fall from the mat creates a situation that requires correct technique, and the odd reality is the skill gets a lot easier when doing it this way, easier still from a two layer height, and at three layers....about 4.5 inches/10cm kids can easily finish into a bhs, and capable tumblers can finish into a bhs to back tuck.

The only down side is they're going to go really fast when they do them out of a run, so they need to prepare for that shock by working with just a two or three step run, and increase the number of steps as they become accustomed to the speed of the bhs, because when you have a good round-off it's darn near impossible not to go fast.

So did that explain it?

 

[Kiwi]

Yes - thank you. I'll have to try it. You've made me think about a round-off in a different way.

 

[henrik541]

Hi, thanks everyone. I've been training all three positions and I'm close to a good RO Layout

NOW can you do this with your back touching the floor or are you already bending ??? ... try to show us a video...

Thanks. Yes, I can do that without bending. I don't have much shoulder flexibility but I don't think that's the problem. I'll try to get a video soon.

Hmmmm????????

When I say I have good rotation, I mean, if I have to do a RO BT on my own, I would, but I would bend my back and jump backwards. I know I would because I did it. If I try to jump "vertically", I can't pull my knees to my chest and finish it.

 

[mado4]

Hi, thanks everyone. I've been training all three positions and I'm close to a good RO Layout



Thanks. Yes, I can do that without bending. I don't have much shoulder flexibility but I don't think that's the problem. I'll try to get a video soon.



When I say I have good rotation, I mean, if I have to do a RO BT on my own, I would, but I would bend my back and jump backwards. I know I would because I did it. If I try to jump "vertically", I can't pull my knees to my chest and finish it.

Well don't want to confuse you but actually there are 2 different kinds of Round offs. One is for RO back tuck and the other one for RO backhandspring. The difference here is the position of the feet after the RO.

Most people learn number 2 because you would like to put a bhandspring after an RO and then the back tuck.

Difference: No2, you have to pull your feet in more, that means when you land after the snap down your knees have to be behind your toes. This way you get your backward momentum. If your feet are behind your knees you get more upward momentum. So…if your back handspring is to high you are probably having the RO No.1 ..if your RO BT is too flat than you probably have Ro2…haha confused ??

This is just a reason if you have a good round off but the rest is not working….

Another trick would be to do back tucks with a coach on a tramp. Have him push against your back so you are forced to move your hips upward and NOT your back backwards …but DO NOT DO IT ALONE !!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Hmmmm????????

translation might mean that he has good rotation going upward and because of that gets good height. not the same as rotation that flips you over.

 

[gasrgoose]

translation might mean that he has good rotation going upward and because of that gets good height. not the same as rotation that flips you over.

Thanks. I read here mostly to try to learn a little more about my daughters sport. Though I will admit it's kinda fun to read the drama that shows up also. This topic is clearly beyond my level of understanding. I was interested since the coaches have been work on my daughters layouts making adjustments. The adjustments are not noticeable to me but apparently necessary to help her twist properly. My uneducated guess is that it is very different from what is being discussed here.