WAG Seeking advice ...very lengthy, sorry

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Crazy gym parents coming here asking for advice from seasoned veterans, please. Neither of us were gymnasts and we acknowledge that we are quite ignorant of the inner workings of the sport, just wanting help for dd. I'm not even sure where to start.

DD is young and has been fortunate to have quite a lot of early success. Of course, she has had normal ups and downs and plateaus, but has had a generally steady climb upwards.

The past few months, I've noticed a change in her. She is sometimes anxious about going to practice, this is new. Crying in my arms at night when I tuck her into bed, often. She says that it feels like her coaches don't believe in her anymore. She feels like she is always disappointing them. She says she fails if she doesn't get new skills fast enough. Then she gets mad that they arent letting her even try certain skills. She fails if she has any fear whatsoever. At times, she would like to ask for a spot, but feels that only makes her look weak, so she refuses to ask. She is frustrated.

After we found out she made tops A camp, she was momentarily happy, then got teary eyed, and said.....it doesn't matter mommy, no matter how good I did, I'm never going to be good enough. I'm never going to make them happy.

This is crushing us as parents. It is difficult to even type this out, but we are so uncertain as to a proper course if action. Here is a kid who has accomplished so much, and loves gymnastics, yet she would swear that she isn't a good gymnast.

We tell her every day how proud we are of her. All of her. That gymnastics is only a part of who she is, and that there are so many things she is good at, including gymnastics. This is a sport that is supposed to improve self esteem, and hers seems to have gotten shredded.

DD is in a homeschool program in a small gym. 22 hrs. The gym has a few older L10s, occasional scholarships, usually to smaller schools. the gym has a new but relatively strong tops program. No elites, yet.

It blows our minds the guts, passion and dedication DD has. She has fire in her. DD has big dreams, but we as parents are realistic. She is super muscular and not the tiny toothpicks that are typically what are looked for, so that, although with continued hard work, she MIGHT be able to make elite, college is a great goal. That being said, we will always support her trying.

She has had her coaches since she was 6 years old, it's all she's ever known. And, I honestly believe it is they who have helped her get where she is. Surely there are bonds of experience here that are not to be severed lightly. It is not our wish to solve emotional damage by creating more.
But.....
Here are my concerns/questions:
1. Since we began this homeschool program, the few super talented little girls have quit gymnastics. There remains a couple strong gymnasts, but the young early talent seems to burn out from the pressure, fear, etc. it seems once any of them have that first fear, it's just a slow road to being done with the sport.
2. DD seems to perform best under pressure, but I'm worried that the constant never ending pressure to continue to win is eating her alive. It never stops. And now she does have a real fear for the first time in her young career...fear of failure
3. I was worried early this fall that she was spread too thin, training tops routines, hopes compulsory routines, and trying to move to L9. Coaches reassured me that this is how it has to happen, so we backed off. Trying really hard to trust them to know more than we do.
4. Our gym does very little in the way of drills. DD has recently said that its hard because she just keeps throwing a skill until she figures it out. Is she just not able to make corrections? Is it possible that the skills are getting harder and more dangerous, and that the lack of drills is only just now becoming a problem for her? Coaches...please correct me on this one if I'm wrong.
5. In an attempt to relieve some of the pressure, I pulled her out of the hopes practice. She is only 9, I assured her, there is time! Then, I canceled her private lessons (we do these because its really the only opportunity she has at practice for learning new skills outside of summer and its damn hard to keep up with all the phenoms at tops camp). Initially, this seemed to help, but now she is so incredibly stressed out that she is only allowed to work routines, and she is afraid of losing many skills that she now hasn't even attempted in 5 weeks. Did I screw up?
6. I really don't think she even needs to do Tops next year, but I fear she then wouldn't get the same coaching, and wouldn't work physical abilities. (Most of the girls in the homeschool program are not on this tops/hopes/elite path) And here's the weird thing, u hear horror stories about the ranch, but DD loves doing tops. She loves practices at camp, she said just today that she would rather go to National Testing any day than do JO meets.....what does this mean about her?
7. Here is the biggest conundrum of all. She isn't happy where she is, she refuses to quit gymnastics, and she doesn't want to switch gyms. Help!

I guess our main question is how do we support her emotionally? And, as shes getting to upper optional skills, are we at a point where changing gyms is something our family needs to consider, or are we okay to continue with what is comfortable?
 
Firstly, what a horrible situation for you and your daughter to be in. It sounds like she is lucky that she has caring supportive parents who will work out what is going on.

Do they really not do drills? Perhaps they're in there and she's just forgetting. Otherwise, um, that doesn't seem right.

... And here's the weird thing, u hear horror stories about the ranch, but DD loves doing tops. She loves practices at camp, she said just today that she would rather go to National Testing any day than do JO meets.....what does this mean about her?
7. Here is the biggest conundrum of all. She isn't happy where she is, she refuses to quit gymnastics, and she doesn't want to switch gyms. Help!
These two bits kind of scare me.
I'm probably projecting here as we've just had to switch dance schools after it became clear that our wonderfully supportive teacher had somewhere along the way slipped into emotional abuse.
Our school had multiple talented kids one by one leave, after they left people are then told that those kids weren't up to it.

Does she love camp because the coaches are different?
It's pretty common for victims of emotional abuse to refuse to leave the situation... :-(

I have no idea about any of the rest of it. But you'll all certainly be in my thoughts.
 
That's a really tough situation. I don't really have a solution for you, but I read the whole thing and wanted to say that I hope you figure something out soon! I empathise with your daughter - I felt similarly to her as a child about some things, though I'm not sure what would have helped me to overcome that. When I was sixteen I went to Tanzania where I volunteered helping to build schools and looking after some children in an orphanage. While I was there I saw a disabled child who wasn't looked after properly mostly because the staff didn't know how to deal with her. I cried for weeks and felt horrible about myself because I felt that I should have done more and not doing so made me a terrible person.

When I was younger than that I was suuuuper perfectionistic and if things weren't perfect then to me it meant that I'd failed. It sounds like you are super supportive and I guess that's all you really can be. If you feel that a gym switch is what she needs then it might be better to just tell her it's happening - the removal of the option might actually be a relief to her - she's not letting anyone down if it wasn't her choice.

Could you suggest she goes to another gym just to check out some specific thing that your gym doesn't have? She may be much more open to a trial session if there is a reason for it like that - some piece of equipment, a coach who specialises in xy or z, etc.
 
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Giving you guys a hug as I type:)

Only thing I can suggest which worked really well for our Dd was focusing on sub- goals, which she identified. Our job as parents was to remind her of these new sub goals whenever she started stressing about bigger things.

It took a year or so but now, at 11 she is a much more relaxed kid.

Good luck:)
 
It sounds like she, and therefore you, are stuck in a bad situation. Have you talked to the coaches about her irrationally thinking she isn't good enough? If they were to lighten up on the negative and praise her a bit do you think that would help? or are things too far gone to attempt to repair? I'm sorry you are going through this, I am sure you will get some good advice here.

As for drills, many times the drills progress so seamlessly into a skill that they don't realize they have been doing drills all along. But at level 9 and 10, no drills usually means you aren't going to get the skills very well. I can't imagine that most kids could just chuck a bar release move and eventually get it.
 
She sounds very talented, and at risk for burn out. She is 9, so initially while reading your post, I though she could be 11 or so beginning that 'emotional' roller coaster of adolescence. It doesn't sound like she's there yet.
The fact that she is feeling like she will never be good enough sounds a bit like the coaches are manipulating.....everyone knows that you can never be perfect in gymnastics.......My DD at 10 knows she will never be good enough to be a super star, but she doesn't care.......that means she is fine with it, and at her gym, there is room for all kinds of gymnasts, very talented, and maybe a little less talented.

When thinking of a program, a good program should make ALL the kids feel good. The really capable ones, and even the not so good ones. This is where I worry about what you are writing. She obviously is super talented for making Tops A, and to think you have cut back two things, Hopes and privates....she still is training a bunch while homeschooling. Some gyms have very weird philosophies that are engrained in the kids. The coaches may not tell you this.....it may be their dirty little secret.....I would be very vigilant and start listening to your mommys gut feeling. Negative coaching and manipulation can be very difficult to detect, and can takes months or even years to figure out. Often, by the time the parents figure it out, the kid has already been suffering for a long time.

It sounds like everyone's perspective is out of whack a little....sorry, don't take offense. Take a step back, and remember your DD is 9, and she is super talented. She probably does not NEED all that extra training. Sounds like she needs a vacation. If that isn't it, maybe she needs a lighter happier gym? Are there other gyms in the area? Can you scope a few out, and begin getting a feel for them? If elite, and Olympics aren't the goal, then why this route?

I know I have asked this, but where are the coaches from?
 
A friend of my dd was emotionally abused for years by her coach and yet she came back day after day for years and just kept working away, was a very quiet/meek child who wouldn't say boo to a goose. Eventually her mum realised that things weren't right and moved her to another gym (she was probably age 10).

Fast forward a year and she is thriving, emotionally and gymnastically. She is happy, far more vocal (although not the loudest in the room!) and verges on cheeky as a child should be. Even the school commented on the huge change in her and raised serious concerns about the old gym after the change in her.

Obviously every situation is different but keep a close eye. I also agree that I would remove the option if you do change gyms and just tell her what is happening. Children of that age like familiarity and change can be scary especially if her confidence has already been knocked.

Finally big hugs and I hope it's just a blip and she bounces back, she sounds like a super talented little girl.
 
It sounds like everyone's perspective is out of whack a little....sorry, don't take offense. Take a step back, and remember your DD is 9, and she is super talented. She probably does not NEED all that extra training. Sounds like she needs a vacation. If that isn't it, maybe she needs a lighter happier gym? Are there other gyms in the area? Can you scope a few out, and begin getting a feel for them? If elite, and Olympics aren't the goal, then why this route?

I know I have asked this, but where are the coaches from?[/QUOTE]
 
It sounds like everyone's perspective is out of whack a little....sorry, don't take offense. Take a step back, and remember your DD is 9, and she is super talented. She probably does not NEED all that extra training. Sounds like she needs a vacation. If that isn't it, maybe she needs a lighter happier gym? Are there other gyms in the area? Can you scope a few out, and begin getting a feel for them? If elite, and Olympics aren't the goal, then why this route?





I completely agree, that DD does not need the extras at this point. She is young, and pretty far along. She is just so upset at the loss of ability to practice her higher skills. Going for big skills is almost like a high for her....I can't explain it. And although we are realistic, she sets her goals high, and I fear nothing less than elite is going to make her happy. I mean, isnt that what theyve been working for these past years? It would crush her completely if we didnt at least let her try, and I feel like at this point that's telling her that we don't believe in her either....ugh
 
I have to say that the responses have floored me. I cannot imagine that DDs coaches would intentionally hurt her. I get it, coaches have to be tough in this sport. I mean, we have trusted them to travel with her to Texas. Will be making an extra effort to observe practice this week as much as possible. Worried even more, now.

I have spoken to coach regarding DDs feelings. DD got in the car and said, it was really weird today, blank said good job to me today. Good sign? Or short lived? I know they care for her.

As to the drills: minimal drills on bars, skills learned with a spot then they go for it(it does seem to work), some drills on vault -- they do timers and some stuff on tumble track. Floor...it depends on who's coaching, beam is where she sees the drills (and DDs best event). Of course, we are not coaches....maybe we are missing it, but DD is pretty Informed in gymnastics. For example, in trying to learn a double back she said she just keeps throwing it into the pit until she figures it out. I know she is being given corrections, as well, so its not all on her own, however, she knows there are drills that she performed at camp that can help her. Granted, dd has excelled at this method for years, but she is nuts and will often just chuck huge skills.......I'm sure there are just different methods to get to the same result

Are parents advising that we not allow her to pursue elite gymnastics? Could it be that our coaches have never experienced elite athletes and truly dont know how to manage or coach the emotional/mental side of it. I do think highly of and have respect for her coaches, but Please, be honest. I want what's best for dd. it is a huge financial sacrifice for us, so we wouldn't even allow it if she wasn't so passionate about it.
 
Sorry gym peeps, I didn't mean to offend you...All I meant is that for most kids, the harshness of higher level isn't for everyone. Most kids it's not an issue, because they are not elite material. In your DD case it sounds like a very real possibility so the mental side needs to be addressed. The mental and physical harshness is the unfortunate the nature of the sport. It is especially hard at the upper levels for a younger gymmie. I can tell you HORROR stories from ex-elites and how they were mentally abused.

I do think there are a couple of red flags though, your post basically says her self esteem is shattered, as she is progressing very quickly. That concerns me because she should feel great with her accomplishments. If her coaches are using mental tactics to squeeze every ounce of effort from her, then you should look a little deeper....Kids at this age are still very much in the 'pleasing' stage where they want to please the coaches/parents. This can be used wisely, or taken advantage of from the adults. When a 9 yo has just accomplished something amazing and the coaches basically are not equally happy, that's a problem.

As kids get older, they can handle the fact that gymnastics perfection is impossible.....as my son says, he did a skill 'less bad' than the previous day.....he can laugh at it, a 9 yo can't because they want to be perfect for everyone. If your DD is a perfectionist, and has very high level dreams, then you better make sure she doesn't burn out....I have a very good friend with an 11 yo going elite....(she herself was elite and is a coach)....she JUST started homeschooling, and she keeps her 'wanting' more by keeping her away from gymnastics as much as possible.

This is just one CGM to another. I don't know your exact particulars, but from what you wrote, there are some red flags.....your DD should be happy NO MATTER WHAT. Sincerely, I really hope you can find out why....I have 2 gymmies, and been dealing with gymnastics 'issues' for a long time.....the goal is they stay happy, and in the sport for as long as possible.

Ps, sorry, just read your response.......elite gymnastics is a tough road, and ends before you DD hits her 20s. Then she has the rest of her life........second....you let you DD travel ALONE to meets with coaches?????????
 
Thanks, munchkin!
No offense taken, we appreciate honesty. Yes, its an emotional, hard road, not to be taken lightly. And, in truth, is racked with failure.

I have tried to explain to her, that even if she quit tomorrow, she still had a great gymnastics career to look back on, and was able to experience so many wonderful things.

You hit the nail on the head with the pleasing, though. I feel she wants to please others so badly, she wants them to be proud of her and think that she's doing great.

And yes, she has traveled to the ranch with her coaches without us. Not JO meets. We went the first time, and we go with to national testing, but we cannot afford the extra plane tickets every time she goes. I was under the impression that this is the norm?
 
Such a tough spot, but wanted to say that DD, though at a lower level, was in a similar situation. She is 10, was training 16 hours per week and was burning out. True or not, she felt a very stressful/negative vibe in the gym. She was terrified of doing poorly and letting her coaches down. Reportedly, there weren't a lot of progressions used (I don't watch much and when I do, I don't know what I'm seeing). DD either did the skill or didn't, and felt like she was 'just being yelled at' if she didn't. She started to shut down. Add in an overuse injury at the end of summer, and it was a very tough fall for her. She felt tremendous guilt for being hurt. She ended up competing by mid-October and even did ok, but just absolutely panicked at the thought of each practice.

DD asked to quit after state. We asked her to think hard about it, as she was just coming off an injury. No go - she was done.

Then after being forced to watch DS practice in a different gym all fall she DH would work late (DD's gym didn't have a boys team), after one of said practices, she asked to give it a try there... When we weren't working on her homework, she'd apparently been watching their bars coach work with their girls... Lots and lots of drills and progressions. DD asked if he could coach her. Add in a much reduced (10hr) schedule that is at least temporarily more user- friendly - We're hopeful.

DD is fine with tough and high standards... She WANTS to do well and win at meets, it was just however things were happening that didn't jive. But with just one truly positive gymnastics-related comment from the director of new gym to DD, and she's fired up and yearning for the Olympics again (never say never, but...).
 
Maybe this sounds crazy, but perhaps she would benefit from talking to a counselor? It sounds like you guys are awesome parents and are trying to do what's best for her, but sometimes talking to an adult who is not a parent or coach could be helpful. And a professional could hopefully pick up if something is seriously wrong or if it's an easier fix. My heart aches for her. Good luck!!!
 
None of my three are anywhere near has talented as your DD, and our area does not have the options for training that you describe. My DS is a very talented violinist, and probably in the same "realm" there as your DD. He has repeatedly gone through times of being overwhelmed, noticing all the things he "can't do" and being unable to appreciate what he has achieved. It really is part of the gift, so to speak. He presently has a private teacher who has been down the same path, and has wonderful perspective - lets him know what "it will take" but also delights in every thing he does well. I have struggled with encouraging him fully and also sitting back when he needs it and letting "opportunities" slide by when he wasn't ready for them....I know that in the end whether he "makes it" will be more dependent upon his emotional health than anything else!

Your DD sounds amazing, and has dedicated so much at such a young age! Gymnastics is brutal, esp. for girls, in that so much needs to happen young - I can truely understand your conflict as a parent - wanting her to be happy - but sensing a problem.

This year for my kids with gym has been a great learning experience - although not gymnastically. DD last year was successful (for her - L7 11 so very different from your DD but on the "college" track here), but miserable, manipulated by her coaches, so bent on pleasing them she tore herself up, undergoing emotionally inappropriate relationships with them, and went from joyous about everything gymnastics even when she "messed up" to feeling like a failure during her "best" year ever. DSs head coach was jailed for multiple rather serious issues, after years of being a "trusted adult" to them and many other kids.

I would have trusted both these coaches with my kids 2 years ago. Luckily, none of my kids were physically abused or hurt, but the 2 oldest have huge trust issues now.

I don't know the world your daughter is training in, but I know my DD present HC pretty darn well, and she was an elite for years and an Olympian, so I have a sense of her perspective. Your DD is 9. She has many more years of gymnastics ahead of her - if she wishes. And then there is the rest of life. It is critical that at her present age your concerns be addressed with the coaches and a long term plan developed - or all her work and talent will not make an ounce of difference. When DD transferred to her present gym (to get away from the other coach - and be where her brothers were) her new HC initially saw her potential and work ethic primarily - and tried to feed them. DD was not emotionally at a place that this was working and TO HER CREDIT the HC recognized this before DD or I did - and sat us down, made it very clear that she should be doing gymnastics because she loved being there and any other reason was not in her best interest long term. I'm sure its easier for a coach to do this with a kid with merely college potential at best, but again your DD is only 9 - its more likely that she'll burn out at this pace than continue - that's just the facts as you have laid them out. If the coach who's been to the top knows that its the journey that matters, then we parents should try hard to see that!

There are always issues of training technique, etc, but in the end a plan between athlete, coaching staff and parents to lead toward a happy adult in the end has got to be the primary base on which dreams of achievement are built. Seems to me that there are likely ways to take some pressure off or your DD while she figures out what she loves about gym and what she wants out of it. DD HC tells a story about a time she took time off because she wasn't sure she wanted to continue - at about your DD age - and went back quickly after missing things. DD went back in the gym after almost 3 months off and is still there 2 months later -NOT training the things she was frustrated with yet, although getting closer each week. DS is skipping a big violin competition because he wants to play in the college symphony more - and do gym competitions as well. Their present coaches and teachers are helping them make their own path.

DD old coach couldn't separate her own success from that of her athletes - had also been an elite but not a very successful one - I'm sure there's some psychology there - but she was a very good coach when she was in it for the right reasons, and very damaging to the girls when not. As a parent of kids 5 years older than yours, I've learned to keep my mouth shut about what skills/pieces/contests might get my kid their dreams, but to make the hard choices if their emotional health/happiness is at stake. Talk to your DD coaches, see what they think - how they approach a super talented but struggling/unhappy kid like your DD will say so much about the next steps in her journey - she must be very talented and driven - she'll weather this storm gymnastically if you can help support her through it emotionally.
 
Realistically it could have nothing to do with the coaches. But if she is perceiving them as being disappointed in her then she believes they are disappointed in her even if they are not. Seeing a counselor and having a heart to heart with her coaches might help her realize how well she is really doing and help her to work through this. I think there are red flags to the extent that your dd can't keep going like this because it is not healthy for her to have this kind of stress at this age. But that doesn't mean that there is some horrible thing going on with her coaches.
 
If the average age for a Level 9 is, say, 12 (I have boys in Canada, I'm guessing), then it must be hard for all involved to remember that your DD is 9 and, though gymnastically advanced, is still age 9 in all other areas.

I would bet that her coaches do not want her to burn out or be unhappy. Her emotional wellbeing will matter to them; she may be putting on a brave face at the gym and only showing you her struggles. Have you asked for a meeting with her coaches to brainstorm how to help your DD?
 
i'll keep this short for now. unless her coaches are complete losers, there must be some kind of misunderstanding of expectations and so forth. you need to go talk to her coaches and find out what is going on. and do it today. what you have described is not a good place to be in at the level she is at. i'll keep my eye out for this thread. :)
 
I myself have experienced feeling afraid of disappointing the coaches, especially when I feel they have high expectations of me. Some personalities are prone to this perfectionism. What I have come to realise is that you simply can't live under that kind of pressure. You have to get to the point where you just say 'I'm going to do my best whatever anyone else thinks'. And often when you take the pressure off yourself you end up doing better anyway because you are not so afraid of making mistakes.

I would definitely suggest discussing your concerns with the coach - often coaches don't realise how they affect the kids. Maybe they haven't even noticed that your DD is feeling like she doesn't have potential - clearly she does to have reached such a high level at a young age. :)
 

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