Coaches Slow rotation in robhs back tuck

[nevertooold]

I have a couple of girls who are learning their robhs back tucks. We do not have pits. They can do the skill off of the tumble trak without help and we having been moving it to the floor over the last several months. We have a couple who are struggling and it seems like the issue is that they are rotating too slowly. Especially one who is quite powerful and is setting and beginning the rotation at about my head height but is still landing very low and not opening. It looks funky, like she is stalling in the air, but again since we are hand spotting I can't get a great view on the skill. WE have cued them to pull their shins to the ceiling, pull their toes to the ceiling, try to rotate faster etc. WE are doing standing back tucks on the track with a mat on there to kill some of the bounce. We are trying to just safety spot and follow spot when we can to allow them to feel where they are and feel the mistake so they can try to correct it.

Does anyone have any other ideas?
The girls are between 10-12 yrs old.

Thank you.

 

[BlairBob]

Umm, get someone to videotape. I use an older phone that has a nice video function and plays back well enough.

A digital camera should suffice. Either have the next kid video it or another coach.

Do they have more horizontal momentum or are they changing the end of the backhandspring to turn the power into vertical momentum. It's not just a matter of setting.

Check to make sure they are not reaching for their knees craning their head forward when grabbing for their knees (if you do that). This will decrease the momentum as it applies force in the opposite direction you are trying to rotate in.

 

[Linsul]

Do you have a spotting belt? When I teach back tucks I start on the floor. Have them lay down straight, arms above their head. Count to 3, and on 3 have them snap their legs to tuck where their hips are off the floor. Their knees should nearly be in their face at this point. When they do these I tell them they are doing the most important of a 2 part rotation creation (yeah it rhymes on purpose lol). The second part is leaning back from the shoulder which keeps their face out of their knees when they actually perform the skill.

If your girls are appearing to stall I'd say they aren't snapping to an aggressive enough tuck *or* that they aren't leaning back from the shoulders. They're still getting around so they're doing one or the other well enough.

If you have a tumble track and a big pit mat I'd try this: Put the mat on the trampoline, only leaving enough room for a power hurdle round off. Power hurdle is a personal preference of mine for learning new tumbling skills. If your girls are very consistent with 3 steps or however many then go with that. The have them round off punch to a flat back on the mat. Then have them round off, flat back, snap to a aggressive tuck position with the hips up. If they do that really well explain they have to lean back from the shoulder (I always say 'shoulder' to avoid them throwing their heads back) at the same time. With a powerful punch they should be able to turn the back tuck on to the mat if they are willing and able to try. They may land in a squat rather than standing on a pit mat.

If they're comfortable with that have them try it so they're finishing on a landing mat rather than the trampoline. The landing mat kills the rebound somewhat so they can land and stick it easier on the trampoline instead of rebounding from the bounce.

 

[Hammy20]

Umm, get someone to videotape. I use an older phone that has a nice video function and plays back well enough.

A digital camera should suffice. Either have the next kid video it or another coach.

Do they have more horizontal momentum or are they changing the end of the backhandspring to turn the power into vertical momentum. It's not just a matter of setting.

Check to make sure they are not reaching for their knees craning their head forward when grabbing for their knees (if you do that). This will decrease the momentum as it applies force in the opposite direction you are trying to rotate in.

Concur with BlairBob... Video is an awesome tool for both the coach and gymnast.

As BlairBob said too, make sure they are not reaching for their knees. This is one of the biggest mistakes I see. While they may take off with a nice set, they have a tendancy to throw their head back and drop their arms to reach for the knees. This causes both the rotation to be slow, but also it keeps the gymnast really from getting the max height out of it that they could.

Before I teach my gymnast a RO BHS back tuck, I do a lot of work on tramp with back tucks focusing on the arms, head and knees. I also, do a lot of RO BHS rebounds where I want to see the arms by the ears and a neutral head position. If I like then we flip it...

A good drill you can do is to have them do RO-BHS rebound onto a stack of mats. And then progress to RO-BHS-back tuck onto the stack of mats. I usually use a big whale mat.

 

[gymdog]

This is usually either core conditioning (takeoff technique is adequate, but snap is not great) or lack of open hips on takeoff (takeoff technique is not adequate, even if the preceding skills generate decent height).

 

[MissBear]

Just BHS tuck on tumble track can help to see where the problem is as they really have to get the technique right without the power from the roundoff. Depend on what you have available, they may be able to do this on their own on a trampoline/fast track to allow you to really see what is going on.

 

[Wally]

Hammy
What is a BIG WHALE MAT????
Wal

 

[BlairBob]

whale mat= porta-pit. Think L4 vault system.

 

[ACoach78]

Jump up in the air and pull your toes to the ceiling....now try to pull your shins to the ceiling...do you rotate? No, your upper body comes forward because Isaac Newton's Mechanical Laws tell you that if you leave the ground with no rotation (i.e. angular momentum) that you can't create any in the air.

So, how do we create rotation? We move our center of gravity away from our base of support while applying force to the ground. This creates an eccentric torque. Well, if our center of gravity is typically around our hips/waistline in most folks, then to create a torque, we must push our hips forward/upward aggressively as we hit out of the backhandspring and are leaving the floor.

Here's the problem - most people teach bad back handsprings and bad round-offs. So, most kids can't land each of those skills without having an angle in their hips (i.e. pike) and therefore they aren't able to push their hips forward because of the poor take-off position. Furthermore, most lack the strength in the buttocks and hamstrings to squeeze tight in order to really extend the hips anyway. And, if they can get opened up on take-off with the hips "pressing" forward, typically they lack the core strength to "snap" their hips under (i.e. posterior tilt) to facilitate rotation by a quick shortening of the body.

Someone else mentioned this stuff, in less detail, but everyone sort of paid little attention to it. Well, guess what...that person was right! ("Gymdog")

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Jump up in the air and pull your toes to the ceiling....now try to pull your shins to the ceiling...do you rotate? No, your upper body comes forward because Isaac Newton's Mechanical Laws tell you that if you leave the ground with no rotation (i.e. angular momentum) that you can't create any in the air.

So, how do we create rotation? We move our center of gravity away from our base of support while applying force to the ground. This creates an eccentric torque. Well, if our center of gravity is typically around our hips/waistline in most folks, then to create a torque, we must push our hips forward/upward aggressively as we hit out of the backhandspring and are leaving the floor.

Here's the problem - most people teach bad back handsprings and bad round-offs. So, most kids can't land each of those skills without having an angle in their hips (i.e. pike) and therefore they aren't able to push their hips forward because of the poor take-off position. Furthermore, most lack the strength in the buttocks and hamstrings to squeeze tight in order to really extend the hips anyway. And, if they can get opened up on take-off with the hips "pressing" forward, typically they lack the core strength to "snap" their hips under (i.e. posterior tilt) to facilitate rotation by a quick shortening of the body.

Someone else mentioned this stuff, in less detail, but everyone sort of paid little attention to it. Well, guess what...that person was right! ("Gymdog")

You are absolutely correct from a physics perspective, however, I think a back tuck is one of those rare instances where what you want a kid to do and what you tell them to do aren't necessarily the same.

In order to rotate a back tuck, the rotation must be generated before the feet leave the floor. As you said, you cannot generate more rotation once you're in the air. HOWEVER, if a kid is actually thinking about generating rotation while still on the floor, the result is most often a loose, arched takeoff with the head thrown back. So it is sometimes more effective to tell the kid to try to simply go straight up on the set and then bring their knees up to make themselves rotate.

This is not necessarily how I would phrase it in coaching it, but my point is that telling a kid to think only about height on takeoff and then pull their knees and hips up for rotation, while completely innacurate from a physics prespective, is not necessarily incorrect from a coaching perspective.

 

[Wally]

You are absolutely correct from a physics perspective, however, I think a back tuck is one of those rare instances where what you want a kid to do and what you tell them to do aren't necessarily the same.

In order to rotate a back tuck, the rotation must be generated before the feet leave the floor. As you said, you cannot generate more rotation once you're in the air. HOWEVER, if a kid is actually thinking about generating rotation while still on the floor, the result is most often a loose, arched takeoff with the head thrown back. So it is sometimes more effective to tell the kid to try to simply go straight up on the set and then bring their knees up to make themselves rotate.

This is not necessarily how I would phrase it in coaching it, but my point is that telling a kid to think only about height on takeoff and then pull their knees and hips up for rotation, while completely innacurate from a physics prespective, is not necessarily incorrect from a coaching perspective.

Agree totally. The prompts would be for vertical lift. Surely rotation is also created by the momentum of the exit from BHS or RO with shoulders coming up & back, unlike a standing back saulto where the gymnast has to initiate and continue the rotation. ??????

 

[Linsul]

The way I've always explained this to a gymnast has been momentum from the rebound, height of the bt from the set of the shoulders after, rotation of the bt from the back and the lift of the hips in the tucking of the legs. It's simple but it's worked for me. If I started quoting Newtons mechanical laws and torque and such I'm pretty sure I'd get a blank stare. If they rebound out of the bh correctly with there's angular momentum, if they tuck their legs enough to lift their hips, their back and shoulders have to follow which would result in rotation.

 

[nevertooold]

Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughtful replies. I really appreciate it and have read and been thinking about all the different ideas presented.

Just wanted to update that right now we have added bhs back tuck off the trak into our workout. We previously only worked the robhsbt and standing tucks on the trak. This is showing promise and giving the girls something they can do competently enough for us to back up and SEE what they are doing (one of us anyway the other stays there to follow/safety spot)

I do think that dropping the arms to the knees, and counterrotating was one of the issues and we are trying to rebuild this habit. Also working on the snap down of the bhs to create an appropriate take-off angle. Anyone have drills for this, other than just doing it.

Just wanted to let you all know that I am still here, reading your responses and am grateful for your insights.

 

[EntrReality]

Have they worked standing tucks off an elevated block? You can do this into a pit or onto the floor/8" mat (off a spotting block). You can also do them down an incline. I teach the entire connection down an incline to some matting (sting mat, 4", or 8")

I don't allow head throwing back. They have to focus on the person in line in front of them (of course they would not be behind them because they would get landed on by the "tucker"). We refer to it as "looking for a friend."

I want them to be able to do a standing tuck on floor before they do a RO-BHS-BT. So I generally begin this training at level 3 or before. Call it "midget tossing."

I have used the shins explanation in the past but have moved on to "hips over the head" like in a backward roll. I have found this works much better for cuing.

Good Luck!

 

[EntrReality]

To tell ya the truth I see more problems occur in the round off than in the BHS. Nothing can be strong in tumbling if this is weak.

I introduce aerials both up an incline mat and over a panel mat. It really teaches them to "drive" to turn over the round-off quicker.

 

[CoachTodd]

Only one thing I can think of that hasn't already been addressed. Get the round off off of the tumble trak. From what I've seen, unless the tumbler if fairly advanced, too many round offs on tumble trak tend to kill the round off. I know of a particular Elite floor specialist who lost quite a bit of his tumbling after playing on tumble trak too much without alternating his tumbling passes on the floor.
Since the round off IMHO is the most important part of this series to get correct, make sure they focus on the round off first then the set. I love the video idea. Videos even help coaches see things that happen a little too fast to pick up on without slowing the skill down.
We sometimes set up about a 16 foot strip of 4inch mats and have the gymnasts do their pass onto the mats. For some unknow reason, they seem to focus more on turning over the round off back hand spring and generate more power into setting the tuck. It's one of those things that seem to work for no know reason.

 

[nevertooold]

Have they worked standing tucks off an elevated block? You can do this into a pit or onto the floor/8" mat (off a spotting block). You can also do them down an incline. I teach the entire connection down an incline to some matting (sting mat, 4", or 8")

I don't allow head throwing back. They have to focus on the person in line in front of them (of course they would not be behind them because they would get landed on by the "tucker"). We refer to it as "looking for a friend."

I want them to be able to do a standing tuck on floor before they do a RO-BHS-BT. So I generally begin this training at level 3 or before. Call it "midget tossing."

I have used the shins explanation in the past but have moved on to "hips over the head" like in a backward roll. I have found this works much better for cuing.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the advice about standing tucks on floor or off a block.

Makes sense to start this earlier as we do start front tucks in level 3.

And I agree hips over the head sounds like a better verbal cue for us to try.

Are you doing robhsbt down an incline mat or just bhsbt??

 

[nevertooold]

Only one thing I can think of that hasn't already been addressed. Get the round off off of the tumble trak. From what I've seen, unless the tumbler if fairly advanced, too many round offs on tumble trak tend to kill the round off.

Thanks! We have gotten some good results with this group of girls by going to just BHS BT off the end of the trak.

 

[EntrReality]

Just BHS-BT down the incline.

I am sure you could come up with a set-up to get the round-off in too. Maybe with a spotting block at the high end of the incline mat placed so that the hurdle phase is on the block and the round -off lands on the incline. Possibly putting two spotting blocks together. I dunno.. I would play with it though.