WAG Team parent meeting comments regarding tuition - any insight

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GymCMLA

Proud Parent
I know this is hard to talk about, ad maybe gym owners can provide insight as to why I feel like every year I hear the same thing (at 2/3 gyms we are at/have been at - old gym (WAG/MAG/TNT), new TNT gym, not new WAG gym)

SO you are at the annual team meeting with the gym or studio owner and HC... and every year x the last 10 I hear some variation on "I loose so much money on team" or "I am so generous and out of the kindness of my own heart and money out of my own pocket" I don't charge "full rate" for all of the hours your kid is in the gym. It has always just sit wrong with me.

We hear the "you have specialized equipment that is largely used by the team. At old gym the parents booster club pays for much of the new equipment which isn't even really allowed. But they use much of it for rec kids, they use their "competitive professional equipment" quotes in their newspaper/internet communications to recruit new families, they use team kids at their "olympic day" to "show what their kids can do here at this great gym"....

Now I understand they charge 15$ an hour for the 1 hour preschool classes. And yes, we don't pay 15$ an hour for all 5 or 6 or 12 or 16 hours our kids are there. SO yes, you don't make "full price" on those hours, but we are there for many hours so you still make money from our tuition and we tend to be consistent, not taking sessions off. Also, the team taking up space in the facility plays a roll in limiting the number of rec kids in the gym at the same time, but honestly none of these 3 gyms is turning away rec kids. And IMO time is barrier to making huge jumps in rec kids numbers as it all has to fit after school and on the weekend. (except some preschool classes for families that have a stay at home parent or nanny).
And team kids wear the t-shirt, have the car decals, post on social media which all advertises for the gym by contacting passively people who may be thinking about an activity for their kiddo.

I'm a numbers person so, hypotehetically speaking, let's use some numbers - 50 team kids,1 5 hours a week. becomes 750 kid hours at 15$ an hour is $11250/week. = $45000/month . The team fee for those hours is 360$/mo x 50 kids = 18000 a month. So they do lose 27000 / month by having team kids at reduced rates instead of rec kids at "full rate" So 27000/15 dollars an hour, so that is 1800 hours of rec kids a month. 450 hours of rec kids a week. DO gyms really have 450 rec kids waiting to get into a class a week? At least here, I say no. There are no kids on a waiting list waiting to get in here. (Now i appreciate there may be ability to offer more class options and recruit kids who looked but didn't sign up b/c of scheduling, but I doubt 450 kids a week)


So why do the owners say this to parents who are investing in their kids at their studio/gym? It is hard to hear and makes me feel uncomfortable.

I thought to myself when I heard it again Sunday - yes you are generous by having a team for our kids, but the reduced cost per hour as the hours increase is really the industry standard. Without it, I don't think any of us could have kids on team. And owner threw in "your coach deserves a raise, but that's not going to happen" (That broke my heart, the coach is wonderful and actually the owners daughter, but again, probably not appropriate for the team parents meeting)

Old gym is old gym for other reasons, and we love our new gyms, but I will say that I appreciate DDs' new gym that doesn't add the "I lose money on you" to the team parents meeting.

Am I missing something? Is there a reason to make us feel bad about "hurting the gym financially?" Or a reason to have us "aware" of this?
 
That kind of messaging to parents, imo, is simply in poor taste. Yes, there is an 'opportunity cost' (loss) associated with using your space/time for team instead of Rec or other higher-hour activities, but pointing this out to your paying customers is distasteful, regardless of amount of truth in the numbers.

Your figures don't include the higher cost of more experienced, probably full-time salaried coaches (hopefully with some benefits) vs. part-time, closer to minimum-wage Rec staff. If the coaching staff has any insurance/vacation/leave benefits paid or partially paid by the gym, that is a significant part of an employee's cost, too, of course. And likely the equipment for a team will take more to upkeep, though I don't have much knowledge of specifics there and that may be less impactful than paying skilled coaches.

There is a fine line for owners between some respectful humble candor with your families on the business model, and plain out guilt-tripping.
 
You know, I never thought about it; but you are right IMO. Of the gyms that we have been at, only one has said this; but thinking about it now I totally agree with you. The reason that gym has such a huge rec program is because their girls' team places so well. If that weren't happening, many of those rec kids would be at one of the many other gyms in the area. The rec parents are there because they have hopes that their little girl will end up on this team. Or they don't want team; but assume that if the facility can produce those team kids, they must be able to do pretty well with then non-team kids too.
 
That would make me incredibly uncomfortable. Another thing to factor in is income from team tuition (at least at our gym) is more reliable than income from rec tuition. During the summer and holidays, the rec classes at our gym are small. It is not unusual for there to be only one kid in a class. There is no waiting list at our gym, either, so parents will pull their kid from a rec class for a month and then put them back in again when they return from vacation. The team kids, on the other hand, are there consistently throughout the year. Gyms may lose a small amount of money on their team programs, but I have a feeling gyms are not losing money hand over fist like they make it out to be. Another thing to consider: How many rec kids will sign up for/stay at a gym without a team program?

DD's gym doesn't share the financial aspects of their business with the parents. Or they don't do so publicly at any meeting I have been to. I would feel the exact way you do if they did.
 
I know this is hard to talk about, ad maybe gym owners can provide insight as to why I feel like every year I hear the same thing (at 2/3 gyms we are at/have been at - old gym (WAG/MAG/TNT), new TNT gym, not new WAG gym)

SO you are at the annual team meeting with the gym or studio owner and HC... and every year x the last 10 I hear some variation on "I loose so much money on team" or "I am so generous and out of the kindness of my own heart and money out of my own pocket" I don't charge "full rate" for all of the hours your kid is in the gym. It has always just sit wrong with me.

We hear the "you have specialized equipment that is largely used by the team. At old gym the parents booster club pays for much of the new equipment which isn't even really allowed. But they use much of it for rec kids, they use their "competitive professional equipment" quotes in their newspaper/internet communications to recruit new families, they use team kids at their "olympic day" to "show what their kids can do here at this great gym"....

Now I understand they charge 15$ an hour for the 1 hour preschool classes. And yes, we don't pay 15$ an hour for all 5 or 6 or 12 or 16 hours our kids are there. SO yes, you don't make "full price" on those hours, but we are there for many hours so you still make money from our tuition and we tend to be consistent, not taking sessions off. Also, the team taking up space in the facility plays a roll in limiting the number of rec kids in the gym at the same time, but honestly none of these 3 gyms is turning away rec kids. And IMO time is barrier to making huge jumps in rec kids numbers as it all has to fit after school and on the weekend. (except some preschool classes for families that have a stay at home parent or nanny).
And team kids wear the t-shirt, have the car decals, post on social media which all advertises for the gym by contacting passively people who may be thinking about an activity for their kiddo.

I'm a numbers person so, hypotehetically speaking, let's use some numbers - 50 team kids,1 5 hours a week. becomes 750 kid hours at 15$ an hour is $11250/week. = $45000/month . The team fee for those hours is 360$/mo x 50 kids = 18000 a month. So they do lose 27000 / month by having team kids at reduced rates instead of rec kids at "full rate" So 27000/15 dollars an hour, so that is 1800 hours of rec kids a month. 450 hours of rec kids a week. DO gyms really have 450 rec kids waiting to get into a class a week? At least here, I say no. There are no kids on a waiting list waiting to get in here. (Now i appreciate there may be ability to offer more class options and recruit kids who looked but didn't sign up b/c of scheduling, but I doubt 450 kids a week)


So why do the owners say this to parents who are investing in their kids at their studio/gym? It is hard to hear and makes me feel uncomfortable.

I thought to myself when I heard it again Sunday - yes you are generous by having a team for our kids, but the reduced cost per hour as the hours increase is really the industry standard. Without it, I don't think any of us could have kids on team. And owner threw in "your coach deserves a raise, but that's not going to happen" (That broke my heart, the coach is wonderful and actually the owners daughter, but again, probably not appropriate for the team parents meeting)

Old gym is old gym for other reasons, and we love our new gyms, but I will say that I appreciate DDs' new gym that doesn't add the "I lose money on you" to the team parents meeting.

Am I missing something? Is there a reason to make us feel bad about "hurting the gym financially?" Or a reason to have us "aware" of this?
Hard to say why the gym owner would say what he/she is saying but is it because parents are asking why they are paying what they are paying and perhaps there is the need to justify on their part? Just asking.

In your breakdown of the numbers, the gym owner is also responsible for the real estate, which would either be the rent or if they own all costs associated with ownership like property taxes, property insurance, maintenance, etc. Additionally, I'm sure liability insurance for the gym is a pretty hefty amount considering the nature of the activities and the number of children involved. Finally, a gym owner is entitled to some reward for the risk of running a gym. We're in a fairly large gym with large rec presence and presumably large overhead. All things considered, we are paying about $5 per hour for my daughter to train and it's money well spent even though the gym owner is probably doing very well with his business, one he and his wife work extremely hard at.
 
I think gym owners use this tactic because they are constantly hearing how expensive it is to have a kid on team. They are offering perspective. I think it depends on how it is presented. Also, depending on how your gym is organized - if you are sharing coaches and equipment with the rec program - team parents may complain about this. Gym owners find it useful to point of that it is the rec families that keep the gym afloat. Without them, the gym would not be able to survive. Yes, we pay more per month but as a whole, the rec program is what keeps the doors open and allows the team to exist and allow the gym to buy the equipment and hire the coaches necessary for a successful program

ETA: gymdad makes a good point about all the expenses. Additionally, a rec program would not need all the equipment that team needs and these tend to be a lot more expensive: 2 or more sets of regulation bars, a pit, several high beams, 1 or more vaults, a full sized tumble track, rod floor, full sized spring floor (or any spring floor). One can run a successful rec gym (and lower level teams) on a more reasonable budget. Team is very expensive for a gym and team tuition does not cover those expenses fully.
 
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In defense of the gym owners, there are still many parents who don't understand how the model works, and think that the $360 they pay for Susie's 18 hours per week is "highway robbery" and that gym must be bleeding everyone dry out of greed. I have heard these kinds of statements from parents. So I'm sure there is temptation by gym owners to bring some awareness when bombarded with insinuations that their team tuition is 'greedy'. But again, candor and education is one thing, harping and guilt-tripping is quite another.

Carrying your original model forward, 50 team kids at $360 per hour may net $18,000 per month, but paying 5 coaches an average salary (say, 30K) plus benefits (say an extra 20% or 6K) costs the gym $15,000 per month. That leaves very little to pay the rent, heat, lights, insurance, and something left over for the owner. So of course the Rec classes at higher-hours cost and lower-cost coaches supports the team (while the presence and success of a team markets to potential new Rec prospects to keep the pipeline full). Not all team families 'get' this model. As Bookworm said, that's just how it works everywhere.

Tempting for owners sick of parent complaints to start the whine fest, but keep it classy, all ;)
 
Hard to say why the gym owner would say what he/she is saying but is it because parents are asking why they are paying what they are paying and perhaps there is the need to justify on their part? Just asking.

In your breakdown of the numbers, the gym owner is also responsible for the real estate, which would either be the rent or if they own all costs associated with ownership like property taxes, property insurance, maintenance, etc. Additionally, I'm sure liability insurance for the gym is a pretty hefty amount considering the nature of the activities and the number of children involved. Finally, a gym owner is entitled to some reward for the risk of running a gym. We're in a fairly large gym with large rec presence and presumably large overhead. All things considered, we are paying about $5 per hour for my daughter to train and it's money well spent even though the gym owner is probably doing very well with his business, one he and his wife work extremely hard at.

Forgot to mention any servicing of debt associated with the gym real estate. that could be a big number depending on the real estate.
 
None of these were prompted by parents complaining about cost or ever asking. At one gym there is 1 coach FT and 1 part time for a team of 50. The other one had 2 FT coaches and 4 part time for a team of 110.
I guess I have the outlook of the rec and team can be/are more symbiotic, but maybe that isn't correct and team really is a drain.
 
I've luckily never heard that from a T&T gym, but it wouldn't make sense for me to have heard it either- in our experience T&T does pay rec rates. I've heard it from a few artistic gyms and it has always struck me as an off note. I know that gyms don't get rich on teams, but no one is forcing you to have one either. I know of gyms that are only rec or only offer low hours xcel (at rec rates), so the owners are obviously getting something from the equation. The juice must be worth the squeeze or they wouldn't do it, so I wish they wouldn't complain about it so publicly.
 
Previous posters have brought up many great points...a few other things to consider: Team Coaches also require more money out of pocket in terms of continuing education. Typically education for a recreational coach can be done in-house. Team coaches are more typically sent to regional and/or national congresses which also cost a pretty penny. In addition there are the USAG costs associated with a team coach being a professional member, having their background check done every two years, and have a safety certificate done every four years. For those gyms who choose to pay for their recreational coaches to be a USAG Member Instructor, it is still cheaper than a USAG professional membership. There are also many gyms that will hold practices for team kids while the gym is closed for recreational classes. Perhaps a rather small expense for electricity & heat, but an extra cost nonetheless.
 
This is how every gymnastics team is run, as far as I can tell (experience from WAG). Not sure why the management keeps bringing it up, trying to make team parents feel guilty? That is literally the business model of the industry you are in?
 
I understand what the OP is saying. I don't think anyone is arguing that having a team doesn't incurs additional expenses or that they are making a ton of money on their team program. We all get it. It's just the attitude of some gyms that they are doing us a huge favor in allowing us to to have our dd's train there that is frustrating and unnecessary. While dd's gym has never directly addressed it, it is definitely implied when someone dares complain about anything team related. I do totally understand our monthly tuition and, while it is a lot, I've never complained about it. I don't personally understand some of the other fees like the yearly $250 registration fee, but I still pay it without complaining. I don't like when we meet with the head coach of the compulsory program and express any kind of dissatisfaction and are basically told that the owner/head coach cares about the rec program (which pays the bills) and the level 10's (which he coaches personally) and that is the gym's priorities. And, like pp have said, I don't understand why a gym would try and make a parent feel guilty about the team expenses. I guess I could see explaining it once to new parents who truly might not understand the gym model, but to repeatedly bring it up just seems unnecessary and annoying.
 
If I compare this to the veterinary field which I work in: We would never tell owners of sick animals that their care is subsidized by all the healthy pets we see. While they do pay less for time spent on their case, and use specialized equipment, and take away time we could use on more profitable appointment; those healthy pets would never be there if we didn't offer care for sick pets! I think it's fairly clear that there is, as a PP said, a symbiotic relationship. And the only time it would be possibly helpful to bring it up would be in response to a specific complaint about costs.
 
I don't think that this is something that should be said to the Members as a whole, unless of course they are coming up against the specific questions on why do I pay so much for training. But I can tell you, being on the board at our gym, it is the truth, the rec subsidies the team. We have 2 separate gyms, a rec gym and a comp gym in the same facility, and if we were able to cut the team and fill it with all rec and rec coaches we would never have to worry about the financials. Not that this would ever be done, but the tuition from team gymnasts does not even pay the salaries of the comp coaches, nevermind paying for the cost of the rental "space" the team gym occupies.
 
Let's remember that the OP specifically stated this is occurring in the parent meeting, presumably at the beginning of the competition season, which means it is being done to alert the new parents and remind the veteran parents. I don't view this as an issue as long as it is done in a tasteful manner. It is obviously a topic that has been and continues to be an issue so the owner/coach is getting ahead of it.
 
Tuition has never been a complaint of mine as that always seems like a good deal for the quantity of training hours involved. I'm actually more annoyed by all of the requirements to work at meets and mandatory fundraisers when my out of pocket booster obligation is higher than other gyms that don't force their parents to do this stuff - aka gyms w/o a booster! The real conversation I'd like to have is with the person or persons who come up w/ those booster numbers and requirements because I think they are doing something really wrong. Maybe they could explain why it's so high and then we can stop low key whining about it all.
 
The fact that it is what it is, is one thing. To say it repeatedly and to veteran parents out of line. And if that needs to be explained to new team parents there should be a separate new team member meeting.
And if it one particular family you take it up with them not the whole group.

If that came up regularly our gym I would flat out tell them to cut it out.

Really imagine if everytime I went in to hand them the check. I rambled on. Boy you don't know how hard it is to pay you on time. This week we had to juggle paying the mortgage, the orthodonist, you, the groceries. And in fact we had to push some bills to the next pay period. Lucky it wasn't you right.

You explain once. Repeatedly is flat out wrong. I would call them on it, not in the meeting but I would have the conversation.
 

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