Parents That lady you hate on Twitter

[SupportingHerDreams]

If I had those answers, I would've given them right off the bat! It's very complicated because of the nature of the long hours and all of the other things I mentioned. How many hours does your 7 YO train?

I don't see how my daughter's training schedule is helpful to this conversation at all. You have already made it clear that I do not know what I am talking about because I lack the time and experiece. I get it, I will not answer a question just to give you more to judge me on.

You and I are not going to agree. I'm ok with that. You keep making excuses and I will look for ways to be an active part in stopping the cycle. You can look down your experienced nose at me all you want. I will continue to learn from those that have been the sport that are willing to discuss ways that parents can work to avoid these situations.

 

[gymjunkie]

I don't see how my daughter's training schedule is helpful to this conversation at all. You have already made it clear that I do not know what I am talking about because I lack the time and experiece. I get it, I will not answer a question just to give you more to judge me on.

You and I are not going to agree. I'm ok with that. You keep making excuses and I will look for ways to be an active part in stopping the cycle. You can look down your experienced nose at me all you want. I will continue to learn from those that have been the sport that are willing to discuss ways that parents can work to avoid these situations.

I was trying to do that, but it really depends on what path she is on. That's part of the complication of giving blanket advice on how to "avoid the situation." For both my USAG safety certification and another similar training I have to do annually to volunteer at church and to maintain my fingerprint clearance I have to demonstrate that I know all of the ways to spot and prevent abuse. It's helpful general info, but it really doesn't help that much in many of the situations that intense involvement with a sport produce.

 

[SupportingHerDreams]

I was trying to do that, but it really depends on what path she is on. That's part of the complication of giving blanket advice on how to "avoid the situation." For both my USAG safety certification and another similar training I have to do annually to volunteer at church and to maintain my fingerprint clearance I have to demonstrate that I know all of the ways to spot and prevent abuse. It's helpful general info, but it really doesn't help that much in many of the situations that intense involvement with a sport produce.

I understand and still disagree.

 

[gymjunkie]

I understand and still disagree.

If you are saying that the exact same strategy for prevention would be applied when you are taking a child to a 55 minute/week rec class vs. a 25+ hour/week team training, then yes we disagree. If you are saying that USAG should not be held responsible for creating and allowing a culture that promotes abuse in competitive gymnastics, then yes we disagree. If you are saying that good parents can always spot and prevent abuse, then yes we disagree.

I challenge you to make a list of proactive steps a parent could take that would minimize it. That's what you suggested others do. I thought about coming up with a few suggestions, but any suggestion would be very dependent on the situation (what age, what level, fast track kid or typical pace, number of hours training, parent's ability to "get the scoop" on the gym/coach's history, personality of kid (shy and compliant vs. rebellious), etc.

Also there ARE crazy pushy parents out there who enable it. They probably don't know they are that parent, so any advice would fall on deaf ears. I sense you think that those parents are the problem, and other parents need not worry too much about it happening to their child because their child will recognize they are being abused and tell someone. If this was true, we would hardly have such a thing as child abuse in this country.

But anyway, why not list your suggestions and encourage others to add to it? Anything I have done to protect my own child would not be helpful advice for most parents because I have always been one of my child's coaches. Even though coaching her was my #1 action that protected her, I'm obviously not going to recommend that to everyone.

 

[SupportingHerDreams]

If you are saying that the exact same strategy for prevention would be applied when you are taking a child to a 55 minute/week rec class vs. a 25+ hour/week team training, then yes we disagree. If you are saying that USAG should not be held responsible for creating and allowing a culture that promotes abuse in competitive gymnastics, then yes we disagree. If you are saying that good parents can always spot and prevent abuse, then yes we disagree.

I challenge you to make a list of proactive steps a parent could take that would minimize it. That's what you suggested others do. I thought about coming up with a few suggestions, but any suggestion would be very dependent on the situation (what age, what level, fast track kid or typical pace, number of hours training, parent's ability to "get the scoop" on the gym/coach's history, personality of kid (shy and compliant vs. rebellious), etc.

Also there ARE crazy pushy parents out there who enable it. They probably don't know they are that parent, so any advice would fall on deaf ears. I sense you think that those parents are the problem, and other parents need not worry too much about it happening to their child because their child will recognize they are being abused and tell someone. If this was true, we would hardly have such a thing as child abuse in this country.

But anyway, why not list your suggestions and encourage others to add to it? Anything I have done to protect my own child would not be helpful advice for most parents because I have always been one of my child's coaches. Even though coaching her was my #1 action that protected her, I'm obviously not going to recommend that to everyone.

Why do you want to argue with me so badly? I'm ok with us disagreeing and moving on yet you continue to push.

I believe that abuse prevention is a lifestyle thing. While I realize there are things unique about the sport of gymnastics I do not believe that those things make it impossible for parenting choices to help protect families from that abuse. To your argument about time, there are many things that take children away from parents for extended hours. I believe that child abuse prevention starts in the home. I believe that a parent can raise a child in a way to best equip them to not become victims and I believe that applies to gymnastics as well as other areas of life.

I'm getting tired of this back and forth. Is there something I can say that would make you ready to call off this argument? If so, I'll say it. I tried to politely back away by saying that I understand and still disagree. Maybe that wasn't clear enough of my intention to pull away from this back and forth. So now I will be very clear, I understand that you have tons of experience and education and knowledge. I understand that you think that the specifics of the sport of gymnastics makes it a special case. I respect that and your opinion. I am not trying to make you agree with me. I will respect that you have a different view on this topic, now could you please respect mine and quit trying to make me answer questions that will pull us into more arguing?

 

[gymjunkie]

Why do you want to argue with me so badly? I'm ok with us disagreeing and moving on yet you continue to push.

I believe that abuse prevention is a lifestyle thing. While I realize there are things unique about the sport of gymnastics I do not believe that those things make it impossible for parenting choices to help protect families from that abuse. To your argument about time, there are many things that take children away from parents for extended hours. I believe that child abuse prevention starts in the home. I believe that a parent can raise a child in a way to best equip them to not become victims and I believe that applies to gymnastics as well as other areas of life.

I'm getting tired of this back and forth. Is there something I can say that would make you ready to call off this argument? If so, I'll say it. I tried to politely back away by saying that I understand and still disagree. Maybe that wasn't clear enough of my intention to pull away from this back and forth. So now I will be very clear, I understand that you have tons of experience and education and knowledge. I understand that you think that the specifics of the sport of gymnastics makes it a special case. I respect that and your opinion. I am not trying to make you agree with me. I will respect that you have a different view on this topic, now could you please respect mine and quit trying to make me answer questions that will pull us into more arguing?

Ummm, I too was trying to back out of the argument by encouraging you to stop talking with me and instead invite others to come up with a prevention strategy because that's what you said should happen here. I assumed you would share your views on how "a parent can raise a child in a way to best equip them to not become victims." If you did do that, don't worry I would not participating because my situation of being able to coach my daughter would not apply to most here.

 

[LJL07]

Well I hope you are right but I do not see it. Kids, young ones, are still in the gym for insane hours all over social media and I do not belong to any those groups and I see it. When they burn out there is another right behind. Parents feed on it. Gyms feed on it. The push for that college scholarship has only gotten worse.

I pose a question to you as a coach. You have intagram for your gym, you have a 16 yr old level 9 and a 10 year old level 9. Who gets posted the most and tagged. Well it’s the 10 year old, usually with some comment saying “ only _ years old “ or some reference to age. Don’t believe me look around at gyms in your area.

Yes there are many youth athletes that have good journeys but the athletes that are allowed to participate in the journey has gotten narrower and narrower. Few kids play more than one sport or are even allowed to attempt it - rules of many club sports won’t allow it. The come from behind kid who matures later is a thing of the past cause kids are selected at such a young age.

I hope your statement is right and it is changing but as a parent in our 10th competitive year it looks exactly the same if not worse in the parent world.

Absolutely. And it had gotten worse and worse with the explosion of social media since my daughters first started the sport. The absurd thing is that most of the 10 year old level 9s aren't going to make it. I have really been enjoying the posts from SHIFT movement--much more sensible and balanced. A 9/10 year old body is not meant to sustain 32-34 hours a week of gymnastics training.

 

[gymjunkie]

Absolutely. And it had gotten worse and worse with the explosion of social media since my daughters first started the sport. The absurd thing is that most of the 10 year old level 9s aren't going to make it. I have really been enjoying the posts from SHIFT movement--much more sensible and balanced. A 9/10 year old body is not meant to sustain 32-34 hours a week of gymnastics training.

My daughter sees a sports med doctor who is a former collegiate gymnasts. Previously she has been the event physician for some of the big elite meets. She says that nobody in the "gymnastics medical" community who associates with USAG is willing to commit to what a "safe" or healthy" amount of training hours are, because it opens USAG up to liability issues. That's actually one reason she stopped associating with them. I guess that leaves us with common sense that 32-43 hours is bad (and good resources such as SHIFT), but no scientific guidelines of what is optimal and healthy! It's so frustrating.

 

[glitterkitten]

This thread makes me sad but also makes me grateful for our gym. No gym is perfect but when a kid switches gyms many kids and parents stay friends and the coaches leave the door open for a return. This slash and burn strategy doesn’t have to be the way.

 

[LJL07]

My daughter sees a sports med doctor who is a former collegiate gymnasts. Previously she has been the event physician for some of the big elite meets. She says that nobody in the "gymnastics medical" community who associates with USAG is willing to commit to what a "safe" or healthy" amount of training hours are, because it opens USAG up to liability issues. That's actually one reason she stopped associating with them. I guess that leaves us with common sense that 32-43 hours is bad (and good resources such as SHIFT), but no scientific guidelines of what is optimal and healthy! It's so frustrating.

So frustrating! Anecdotally, after the quarantine, my girls trained a reduced number of hours in smaller groups. They did great with this schedule and were well rested but progressing and getting their skills. When we were able to return to larger groups and the hours ramped out, there were quite a few injuries among the girls. But you’re right. USAG will not make any recommendations about safe training hours. I guess they want the elites training 45 hours/week.

 

[Deleted member 26368]

USAG will not make any recommendations about safe training hours. I guess they want the elites training 45 hours/week.

This is the heart of the "win at all costs" undercurrent of youth sports. I've seen it in sports other than gymnastics, too. Train, work hard, WIN. Mental health? Emotional development? Too many parents and coaches put those on the back burner. It's *almost* as if "success" matters more to the adults running XYZ sport than the kids actually participating in the sport....

Sheesh, adults sure know how to take things that are supposed to be enriching, fun activities for our kids and twist them into something so dark.

(Note: I'm making a broad statement here, but of course this doesn't apply to all situations. I do agree that parents, coaches, and USAG should work together to address the issues we've discussed in this thread.)

 

[profmom]

An awful lot of teenagers either quit when they are old enough to mount serious resistance, or quit when they start college.

There will always be the medical outliers, the kids whose bodies can hold up to 30+ hours of training per week. Because we are conditioned to attribute success to this kind of work and failure to individual misfortune or lack of effort, we keep making the same mistakes. And I'd be perfectly willing to concede that the outlier whose body will tolerate 30+ hours a week is going to be more polished than the person in the bell of the curve who trains most successfully at around 20 hours per week. Just don't pay any attention to the carnage along the road.

 

[LJL07]

An awful lot of teenagers either quit when they are old enough to mount serious resistance, or quit when they start college.

There will always be the medical outliers, the kids whose bodies can hold up to 30+ hours of training per week. Because we are conditioned to attribute success to this kind of work and failure to individual misfortune or lack of effort, we keep making the same mistakes. And I'd be perfectly willing to concede that the outlier whose body will tolerate 30+ hours a week is going to be more polished than the person in the bell of the curve who trains most successfully at around 20 hours per week. Just don't pay any attention to the carnage along the road.

Pretty much all of the kids training 30+ hours seem plagued with injuries. I can’t really think of anyone who hasn’t had injuries on that type of training schedule, although true there is an exception to every rule. SHIFT had a post with some data about injuries and surgeries prior to college in females at upper and elite gymnastics levels. It was very eye opening. Sure they look more polished at those hours when they are healthy enough to compete.

 

[Flopsygymnast]

Pretty much all of the kids training 30+ hours seem plagued with injuries. I can’t really think of anyone who hasn’t had injuries on that type of training schedule, although true there is an exception to every rule. SHIFT had a post with some data about injuries and surgeries prior to college in females at upper and elite gymnastics levels. It was very eye opening. Sure they look more polished at those hours when they are healthy enough to compete.

Injuries are more due to how the gymnasts train than how many hours they train. Of course a gymnast who trains 30 hrs a week is 1.5 more likely to be injured than a gymnast who trains 20 hours a week. But reducing stress on the body, using safe landings etc are most important to prevent injuries

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

I would have to hunt it down, but several years ago I saw a statistic about injuries in gymnastics practices that listed an astronomical increase in injuries after 3.5 hours of practice in a day vs. before that mark.

 

[Flopsygymnast]

I would have to hunt it down, but several years ago I saw a statistic about injuries in gymnastics practices that listed an astronomical increase in injuries after 3.5 hours of practice in a day vs. before that mark.

I would love to see this! Not saying I disbelieve it I just want to see proof

 

[LJL07]

Injuries are more due to how the gymnasts train than how many hours they train. Of course a gymnast who trains 30 hrs a week is 1.5 more likely to be injured than a gymnast who trains 20 hours a week. But reducing stress on the body, using safe landings etc are most important to prevent injuries

Are you basing this off your sisters' experiences? Training safely is important, but hours are also important.

 

[Flopsygymnast]

Are you basing this off your sisters' experiences? Training safely is important, but hours are also important.

Nope I'm just stating a logical fact.

 

[GymDadWA]

I would love to see this! Not saying I disbelieve it I just want to see proof

This might be the study referenced: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4622338/

 

[Flopsygymnast]

This might be the study referenced: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4622338/

Yup U quoted that right!