The US Gymnastics Gap w/ Women vs Men.....compared to USA Swimming

[flippingtogether]

I am trying to understand what is going on within USA Gymnastics as to how and why the men vs. women are organized and managed so differently. We certainly see they compete very differently, and get such different results - as Laurie Hernandez's dad points out in this interesting article, the US women actually "embrace pressure" - it sure seems like the men don't.

http://www.espn.com/olympics/gymnas...-olympics-why-gap-big-us-men-women-gymnastics

The article also goes into interesting points, including talking about how the women have been using a certain sports psychology coach for many years. This same coached worked with the men for a while, but he has not been fully utilized by the men gymnasts in the same way the women have, as some from the men's side weren't buying into that approach.

I have a swimmer kid, and it is really interesting to look to USA Swimming, as they as an organization get a lot right. The swimmers are at their clubs the majority of their time - I actually don't know who and how national keeps an eye on their training. But the men and women I believe use the same approach overall, and both get excellent results. The men and women also appear to know each other pretty well and are positioned to the public as "one team" - look at the fun video they did in 2012 (Call Me Maybe) and this year (Carpool Karaoke). The swimmers work super hard, and also have FUN and USA Swimming does a great job marketing the sport to families and kids. It appears to me that the same formula, whatever it is, is used for both men and women.

I know there are a zillion factors that go into all this, age of athletes (women gymnasts tend to be younger, the men gymnasts tend to be older, but the swimmers really are all over the board in age from teens to 30s) just being one of the important ones.
I guess my biggest question is how and why USA Gymnastics has the men and women's teams managed so very differently....and will that perhaps change??

 

[txgymfan]

I wrote four years ago about how impressed I am with USA swimming and I continue to be. They do an excellent job of marketing themselves. The teams are unified, prepared and well presented. The US men seem like nice, hardworking young men. I would love to see them better able to hit under pressure and better marketed.

 

[gymdog]

Men's and women's gymnastics are more "different" sports than men's and women's swimming, right? I don't know a lot about swimming, but besides the men having a size/strength advantage it seems like the same equipment and programs and strokes. Don't men and women train together in a lot of swimming programs? I have no idea but it seems to me a lot closer training than men's and women's gymnastics will ever be. Not saying there aren't the same techniques in gymnastics in some areas, but I can't tell a whozit from a whatzit on pommel horse and I guarantee we have female Olympic gymnastics coaches who can't either (and maybe some male WAG coaches also). I mean I understand the physics of it and what's improper form or amplitude, but I don't know the skills or the relatively difficulty. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be true for swimming. I don't know what they're doing, but I'm guessing a women's swimming coach can look at what a men's swimming race is doing and immediately identify it.

A more apt comparison might be USA tramp and tumbling. In this area the men's and women's teams seem pretty equal. In many gyms with T&T programs (in fact every single one I've heard of, but I'm sure there are exceptions) boys and girls train together.

That's not to say I don't think the MAG team couldn't become more dominant. In fact, they've admitted that they need to try and use some of the techniques that have worked for USA WAG. But you've got a few things working differently so it's not just a matter of copying. First we have cultural considerations. Unlike some countries, boys aren't flocking to residential schools to do gymnastics, and then essentially have to stay there. Culturally in the USA men's gymnastics doesn't have the same cache as women's - I think that's wrong but it is a fact. Girls dwarf boys in participation at all levels of the sport including recreational. Let's take China for example, and in the documentaries I've seen of their early sports schools, it's much more on par.

Then you have the fact that men usually peak after college. So historically the men's program has been in a place of working with the NCAA or having to somehow fund training opportunities for men in their mid twenties who aren't living at home in high school any more. With the NCAA disappearing at an alarming rate, here we have another obstacle.

But in my opinion management of USA MAG needs to change at every level...and then stick to it. There have been so many changes over the past twenty years. And it only gets more complicated. We need a straightforward developmental system and then stick to it.

 

[ldw4mlo]

Marta, the difference is Marta.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/how-to-really-watch-olympic-gymnastics

 

[2G1B]

It goes beyond what happens with the national team, or Marta, or training at the upper levels IMO. Gymdog really hit on a lot of the big problems IMO. I have two girls and a boy in this sport. When people hear that my girls are gymnasts people think it is awesome, great, what ever. "Are they going to the Olympics?" "Which college do you want to compete for?" And seriously, this isn't something that my girls are shooting for. Especially not my 10 yo DD who is on track to be 5'9" - 5'11"! When people hear that my son is a gymnast I get responses like, "Are you trying to make him a male cheerleader or something?" or "Hm. How much longer will he do that before swapping to a boy sport?" or he gets, "Why do you do a girl's sport??" And that is with him homeschooling for middle school so far (he just started 7th grade), so not dealing with the worst of the peer issues that middle school has to offer!

Past that, there are just about no colleges now that offer gymnastics. So, if you are in it not hoping for the Olympics, you realistically need to not be hoping for college either. A lot of girls have gymnastics college dreams; but it isn't too realistic for the boys at all since the odds are WAY, WAY against them even doing college gymnastics.

Now add in that not nearly as many gyms have boy's teams. I'm in an area that has comparatively a lot of boys' teams. Within a 1 hour drive I could pick from 4 teams. 6 if I bumped it to an hour and a half. Compare that to at least 10 within a 40 minute drive of my house!

So yeah, there are probably some issues that can be changed from how things are done with the team at the national level; but IMO things need to be done at a much lower level first and some of it is tough. Hopefully with the Ninja Warrior popularity some of the stigma will lessen for boys doing gymnastics. I'm not sure what else can be done to cut down on this issue. Maybe have the guys wear compression shirts instead of the singlets; but then... wrestlers wear singlets and no one seems to have an issue with that sport not being "manly". We definitely need to do what we can to not get the sport dropped from the few remaining colleges. It would be great if we could figure out a way to get colleges to start putting it back as a sport; but that is pretty tough.

And once you get to the national team level, as gymdog pointed out, you are often talking about men, not teenagers. Not kids who are still in high school or barely out. You have to figure out how to balance their time training with the lives that they might have outside of the gym. It is tougher to do with someone in their 20s than with teen agers.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

I've been coaching girls since 2003. I was a scholarship gymnast and coached boys for several years before switching. The reason I switched was not because I loved coaching girls (which I do now) but because coaching boys doesn't pay as well. I didn't want to switch but it looked like if I was going to make a living at coaching, that was what I'd have to do.

When people talk about the numbers of the WAG vs men's, economics comes into play. Those numbers allow clubs to pay more for a girl's coach. When I opened a gym, I wanted to switch to boys again but I couldn't make it work. I would've had to pay a good girls coach about twice as much.

A final thought is that that carried over when coaches come over from other countries. The women's program definitely benefitted from foreign coaches and their influences. If you were moving from another country, wouldn't the focus probably be on making a decent living? So they came and coached girls. There are some exceptions but the numbers are still on the girls side.

If you look at the numbers and the women had the same number of participants as men, who would be unhappy when they had two in the top 15 at the olympics?

 

[flippingtogether]

Men's and women's gymnastics are more "different" sports than men's and women's swimming, right? I don't know a lot about swimming, but besides the men having a size/strength advantage it seems like the same equipment and programs and strokes. Don't men and women train together in a lot of swimming programs? I have no idea but it seems to me a lot closer training than men's and women's gymnastics will ever be. Not saying there aren't the same techniques in gymnastics in some areas, but I can't tell a whozit from a whatzit on pommel horse and I guarantee we have female Olympic gymnastics coaches who can't either (and maybe some male WAG coaches also). I mean I understand the physics of it and what's improper form or amplitude, but I don't know the skills or the relatively difficulty. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be true for swimming. I don't know what they're doing, but I'm guessing a women's swimming coach can look at what a men's swimming race is doing and immediately identify it.

A more apt comparison might be USA tramp and tumbling. In this area the men's and women's teams seem pretty equal. In many gyms with T&T programs (in fact every single one I've heard of, but I'm sure there are exceptions) boys and girls train together.

That's not to say I don't think the MAG team couldn't become more dominant. In fact, they've admitted that they need to try and use some of the techniques that have worked for USA WAG. But you've got a few things working differently so it's not just a matter of copying. First we have cultural considerations. Unlike some countries, boys aren't flocking to residential schools to do gymnastics, and then essentially have to stay there. Culturally in the USA men's gymnastics doesn't have the same cache as women's - I think that's wrong but it is a fact. Girls dwarf boys in participation at all levels of the sport including recreational. Let's take China for example, and in the documentaries I've seen of their early sports schools, it's much more on par.

Then you have the fact that men usually peak after college. So historically the men's program has been in a place of working with the NCAA or having to somehow fund training opportunities for men in their mid twenties who aren't living at home in high school any more. With the NCAA disappearing at an alarming rate, here we have another obstacle.

But in my opinion management of USA MAG needs to change at every level...and then stick to it. There have been so many changes over the past twenty years. And it only gets more complicated. We need a straightforward developmental system and then stick to it.

The T&T example is interesting - I don't know anything about how that group is organized and managed and nor how they work with their athletes, but it sounds like the national oversight for the boys and girls is the same.
And yes, swimming is incredibly different from gymnastics, and no, gymnastics coaches might not be interchangeable between men and women, but the overall approach for how each is managed at the national level is radically different. And other great points were brought up about the differences of girls vs boys feeding kids up through to college ranks and beyond - there is simply not the same interest or opportunity among kids with gymnastics for the boys vs. girls. That really needs to change somehow in the US - but the big questions will be how to make that happen.

But going back to looking at how the National Teams are run - there is the Ranch for the women where they come together regularly, but that is not the approach they use for the men (i.e. no "men's Ranch").
(And if the boys and girls they used the same approach they wouldn't necessarily be at the same place for training....it would just be more similar in how the training and oversight works)
Do boy gymnasts have a program like TOPS that brings kids together from all across the country after testing time, and is one of the identifiers of talent at a younger age?
Could there be a successful "men's Ranch"? Could that work?

Again, I truly find it interesting how there is no overlap in the general approach and national oversight of the US athletes with the WAG and MAG.

 

[munchkin3]

It's definitely a deep problem involving everything from popularity for boys gymnastics, coaches, time to peak, philosophy.....
No coaches- it's so hard to find a good men's coach.....I'm talking a good one.....boys can be a challenge to teach when they are little.....you need an experience teacher.
Clubs- boys gymnastics is more than twice the cost to run than WAG. For maybe 1/2 the participation.
Time vs. injury- boys must train a lot longer, on 6 events....more injuries and more attrition.
Most boys do it because they love it.....there are very few options after L10....
Final and most important.....no support......the USA does not value men's gymnastics.....

 

[2G1B]

The T&T example is interesting - I don't know anything about how that group is organized and managed and nor how they work with their athletes, but it sounds like the national oversight for the boys and girls is the same.
And yes, swimming is incredibly different from gymnastics, and no, gymnastics coaches might not be interchangeable between men and women, but the overall approach for how each is managed at the national level is radically different. And other great points were brought up about the differences of girls vs boys feeding kids up through to college ranks and beyond - there is simply not the same interest or opportunity among kids with gymnastics for the boys vs. girls. That really needs to change somehow in the US - but the big questions will be how to make that happen.

But going back to looking at how the National Teams are run - there is the Ranch for the women where they come together regularly, but that is not the approach they use for the men (i.e. no "men's Ranch").
(And if the boys and girls they used the same approach they wouldn't necessarily be at the same place for training....it would just be more similar in how the training and oversight works)
Do boy gymnasts have a program like TOPS that brings kids together from all across the country after testing time, and is one of the identifiers of talent at a younger age?
Could there be a successful "men's Ranch"? Could that work?

Again, I truly find it interesting how there is no overlap in the general approach and national oversight of the US athletes with the WAG and MAG.

In the TOPS thing, basically yes. It is called future stars. There is also junior elite, which is different than for the girls.

 

[profmom]

But going back to looking at how the National Teams are run - there is the Ranch for the women where they come together regularly, but that is not the approach they use for the men (i.e. no "men's Ranch").
(And if the boys and girls they used the same approach they wouldn't necessarily be at the same place for training....it would just be more similar in how the training and oversight works)
Do boy gymnasts have a program like TOPS that brings kids together from all across the country after testing time, and is one of the identifiers of talent at a younger age?
Could there be a successful "men's Ranch"? Could that work?

As 2G1B notes, the Future Stars program in many ways serves that purpose. (One very funny moment in one of the live streams was when Jon Horton remembered doing a Future Stars national competition and getting a 1 on pommel horse.) And the top FS finishers have developmental camps. Beyond that, the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado hosts several members of the men's national team who train there full time. On this year's Olympic team, the OTC athletes are Chris Brooks, Sam Mikulak, and Alex Naddour.

A couple of things. First, these guys don't stink. They were fifth at Worlds with some significant people out last year. They just got fifth at the Olympics -- and I remind everyone that one of the men named to the team was out. At this point, they can be counted upon to make team finals. It's just getting on the podium that's difficult. And the individuals on the team are very, very good. Every single member of this team made at least one event or the AA final. The problem the last few years has been hitting every routine, but I think some of that is that they are competing close to right up to the capacity of what they can do, which makes hitting everything harder. And it's not insignificant that going six for six is a somewhat different animal than going four for four.

But beyond that, the structural issues matter. I think the biggest thing that USAG could do to help men's gym is to push aggressively for the return of college men's gym. Figure out ways to support new initiatives like Southern California MCGA and the New York Alliance and develop incentives for other areas to build them. Chicago seems like an obvious place for the next one. And why is there NO college men's gym in the entire state of Texas? For women, the training that gets them to the top happens in clubs. For men, except for the handful who go to the OTC, it has to happen in college.

More college programs would create more interest among boys who are fascinated by Ninja Warrior. I also applaud the introduction of Junior Development and hope it works. More opportunities for boys to do gym will increase participation and help the ones who have accepted gym as their one true religion to be seen less as weirdos and freaks. More participation will also mean more demand for coaches, which from what I remember from my long lost days of Econ 101, should drive up wages and create more incentives for people to come to the US on H1B1 visas.

Our men are already among the best in the world. And things can change in this sport. Who would have guessed twelve years ago that the Chinese men would be sitting in third at worlds and the Olympics consecutively? That Great Britain would be a persistent medal threat? I am optimistic about the future.

 

[gymboymom]

This is a great discussion. MAG and WAG are so different from each other. I don't think we can compare the differences between training men and women in this sport to swimming or T&T. In T&T it appears to me men and woman are doing very similar skills like in swimming.
I personally don't think the future stars program is set up to recognize young boys with potential the way TOPs is. It is all routine and skill based. Since boys peak do much later I would like to see a system that helps keep more boys in the sport (I think just going to the ranch for testing helps the woman's team). Some men's regions do a great job with motivating the young boys. Region 7 comes to mind with their camps. Other regions offer nothing (no state/regional camps or clinics).

 

[gymboymom]

Not only are there no men's college gymnastics programs in Texas (a huge boys gymnastics state). There are none in Florida (another large boys gymnastics state). Nor any of the whole Southeast for that matter. This is a huge issue for the sport.

 

[skschlag]

The men's team does travel to the OTC regularly for national team workouts. I am not sure it is monthly, or if everyone can make it. I think the difficulty with men being in college can make the central training more difficult.

I stand by my assertions earlier. More college programs would lead to more gymnasts staying in the sport, leading to more coaches being available, leading to more boys in the sport, leading to a larger pool for the nat'l team, leading to more boys staying in to compete in college. Like profmom...college is where it needs to start but there are many roadblocks in the way of that. (funding, Title IX numbers, etc)

It is so difficult to watch a boy gymnast who really wants to do college gym, but know that the odds are so small for that. Then waht does he do? How does he stay in shape to continue competing? JO does not offer opportunities, many gyms do not have adult gym for men, so college is it.

 

[Faith]

It's generally a numbers thing.

You have more girls in the sport. Statistically that means you find more elite girls, bigger national squad, more competition, better results.

My current theory is that the UK men are more successful than the women because although there are more WAG participants, a tiny percentage get on the elite track by 7. So while there are millions of girls in the sport, none of them have a chance at elite. No age related elite track for boys means all of them have a shot. So in reality more boys are able to train elite than girls.

 

[profmom]

The college problem is not Title IX. It is football. So many young men could do so many different sports if more colleges would realize that spending such a huge proportion of their scholarship money on one sport that frequently hurts their athletic department's bottom line is foolish and inequitable.

 

[skschlag]

The college problem is not Title IX. It is football. So many young men could do so many different sports if more colleges would realize that spending such a huge proportion of their scholarship money on one sport that frequently hurts their athletic department's bottom line is foolish and inequitable.

True. There were several MAG programs cut due to Title IX inequities...but I think the inequities were football related.

 

[GymDad9.9]

Not only are there no men's college gymnastics programs in Texas (a huge boys gymnastics state). There are none in Florida (another large boys gymnastics state). Nor any of the whole Southeast for that matter. This is a huge issue for the sport.

Probably has more to do with Title IX requirements and universities putting their male sports priorities elsewhere than anything.

 

[Faith]

Do you think college gym is the key?

As far as I can tell- most collegiate WAG only compete NCAA once their elite career is over. In WAG, college does not lead to elite, if anything it does the opposite (burn out, college commitment, different rules etc).

NCAA is unique to the US. Not having college scholarships doesn't seem to hold other countries back....

 

[profmom]

In the US, college sports are the primary path to professional sports for men in multiple sports, most notably football and basketball. Given the infrastructure and expectations, yes, for American men, college gym is key in building the bench from which our top elites will primarily come.

 

[GymDad9.9]

In the US, college sports are the primary path to professional sports for men in multiple sports, most notably football and basketball. Given the infrastructure and expectations, yes, for American men, college gym is key in building the bench from which our top elites will primarily come.

When you have such a dearth of men's college programs you essentially have no infrastructure for the sport relative to other sports.