For Parents Thoughts on meets were you think it matter what team leo you wear

[drivingmom]

Okay so we had two meets recently were it seemed to matter what team you were on for a big score. I seen some amazing floor routines early in the session form very small teams that received low scores. The last two teams on the floor where the "BIG" gyms and they scored the highest in the session with less or equal routines to my untrained eye. I know, I know what you are thinking, but I have to wonder if the judges know that they have yet to see these gyms and hold back the big scores. It's wrong and you would think that this would not happen, but I have seen it all to often and believe it does.

Just wondering your thoughts?

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I would have to agree with this completely. Our gym does not go to some of the really big meets in our area (especially at the compulsary level) for this reason exactly. I remember hearing our coaches just reeling when a sloppy routine outscored a clean routine just because of the gym they were from. It is frustrating and I don't think it happens at all meets but it does when you have some of the really big well known gyms there.

 

[Kiwi]

I haven't seen it happen yet, so I don't know if it does happen here, but I'm fairly new to it. I remember reading in 'The Gymnasts' books (written in the 1980s, I know they're fiction but I'm assuming they were based on reality) that the gyms put their weakest gymnast in the team first, going up to their strongest last, so that judges had room to go up on the scores. That kind of reasoning sounds completely wrong to me. Scores should be based on skills and deductions from the code of points, not by comparing gymnasts or what gym they're from or what order in the session they come in.

 

[nevertooold]

A very good routine from a regular gym will score very good.
An average routine from a regular gym will score average.

A very good routine from a "power gym" will score excellent.
An average routine from a "power gym" will score very good.

It matters what Leo you wear.

 

[MaryA]

I haven't seen it happen yet, so I don't know if it does happen here, but I'm fairly new to it. I remember reading in 'The Gymnasts' books (written in the 1980s, I know they're fiction but I'm assuming they were based on reality) that the gyms put their weakest gymnast in the team first, going up to their strongest last, so that judges had room to go up on the scores. That kind of reasoning sounds completely wrong to me. Scores should be based on skills and deductions from the code of points, not by comparing gymnasts or what gym they're from or what order in the session they come in.

Our coaches do this... I notice that our coaches seem to put the girls in order of how they "expect" them to score, with the lowest first. I thought that maybe it was a "mind game" thing... that the less confident ones were better off going first rather than stand there and worry about their turn coming up. But maybe this is why they do it. In some ways, it could be a self-fulfilling prophesy though. The kids have figured out by now (at least the level 5's have) that this is what they do. So if you go first at an event, then you know the coaches aren't expecting you to do very well... and then you probably won't. If you go last, it's a vote of confidence from the coaches and you're more likely to do well. It seems like a flawed system. I've also been told by a mom that used to coach that you want to have floor as your last event in the rotation because they start scoring floor low so that they have room to go up. I don't know how true any of this is, but you're right... it should be straight deductions, consistant across the board. Even tough scoring is O.K. if it's consistant.

 

[bogwoppit]

Our gym is a tiny rural gym and we always compete against two powerhouse gyms, we always joke that they could go out and fall on their heads and beat our girls. THe leos do matter, they shouldn't but they do.

In our region the same 10 gyms compete at all our meets, so we never have the opportunity to avoid these teams. The podiums tend to look the same year after year!

 

[emandelsmom]

Yes it matters. Our gym is not liked. We are not a favored gym. Therefore, in our home state, we don't do well. Take us out of state and the treatment is much nicer. Judges smile at the girls not bark at them and be down right ugly. Yes, it has happened a LOT. Is it fair? No. But I look at how many actual level 10's there are in our state and there are so few. Those from the favored gyms never do well at regional or nationals. They usually only compete in our state-why go outside our state when you can be the big fish in a small ocean? Do girls from our state go to college on scholarships--none that I have heard of. We have checked the rosters in all the big gym teams around us. Our coaches are aware of this. We compete outside our state. It is so much better and healthier for the girls self esteem.

 

[cher062]

Yes it matters I've seen the "power gyms" actually fall all over the place and get in the 9's and other gyms my DD's included do a routine with no falls and get low scores. My thought is if you fall on your butt 3 times in a min and a half you shouldn't be scoring a 9.anything. If you fall off the beam on the "big" skills 3 times you shouldn't be coming in first. But I have seen it.

I know judges say they treat all the same but I think even if its unconciously that they do have their favorites and tend to be a little easier in the scoring on them.

It happens.

 

[NGL780309]

Our coaches do this... I notice that our coaches seem to put the girls in order of how they "expect" them to score, with the lowest first. I thought that maybe it was a "mind game" thing... that the less confident ones were better off going first rather than stand there and worry about their turn coming up. But maybe this is why they do it. In some ways, it could be a self-fulfilling prophesy though. The kids have figured out by now (at least the level 5's have) that this is what they do. So if you go first at an event, then you know the coaches aren't expecting you to do very well... and then you probably won't. If you go last, it's a vote of confidence from the coaches and you're more likely to do well. It seems like a flawed system. I've also been told by a mom that used to coach that you want to have floor as your last event in the rotation because they start scoring floor low so that they have room to go up. I don't know how true any of this is, but you're right... it should be straight deductions, consistant across the board. Even tough scoring is O.K. if it's consistant.

When we go to meets the coaches don't get to choose what order the girls go in. We are often mixed with another team and each event starts with a different person.

 

[ThreeGirlsForMe]

I have not noticed this at our meets, however, we also do not get to pick the order for the girls. That is determined by the meet and usually rotates with each event.

 

[Gymnasticgrandkids]

I have to disagree with most of these remarks as my DGD's came from a small gym and didn't score as high as the so called power gyms in most events and I always thought that it was the leo that made the difference (and maybe it does a bit). But I do not feel this way any more....my DGD's moved to one of those power gyms and their scores definitely moved up but it was not just because of the leo...the girls learned that there were certain elements that they previously were not doing correctly (although they had been given very good coaching at the old gym, some of it was not in line with USAG)...also emphasis was given at the new gym for much bigger split leaps, leg separation, toes pointed, prettier and more controled bhs's etc., foot placement and all those "pretty points" that you hear about. As mentioned, it may very well be the "untrained eye" that is causing the feelings and not the power gyms...btw, my DGD's are still not at the top of the heap but there certainly is a difference in what their routines look like now and I can see that difference. But I certainly do hear ya and can see why you feel this way, oh, and we are also in Region 8.

 

[3stars]

I've seen it. Last year was the first year our gym put together a team and since we were the new kids on the block, our girls got knocked hard during scoring. I'm not saying that some of the lower scores (my daughter's included) were not deserved, but some girls were doing great routines and got lower scores than girls making big mistakes from some of the older, bigger gyms. Best example of this we saw was during floor a little girl from one of the big gyms forgot a skill during her routine and after she saluted and walked off the floor, her coach sent her back out to show the judge she could do the skill. She scored over a 9 and placed 3rd for floor. Really?

 

[3rd_time_around]

Yes it matters I've seen the "power gyms" actually fall all over the place and get in the 9's and other gyms my DD's included do a routine with no falls and get low scores. My thought is if you fall on your butt 3 times in a min and a half you shouldn't be scoring a 9.anything. If you fall off the beam on the "big" skills 3 times you shouldn't be coming in first. But I have seen it.

I know judges say they treat all the same but I think even if its unconciously that they do have their favorites and tend to be a little easier in the scoring on them.

It happens.

Wow! each fall is -.5, so how could they still score a 9? That is crazy! I have seen this, and it is really hard to accept when you watch a great routine from one of your gym's girls--no wobbles, no falls, pure beauty on the beam--then watch the very next girl from *that gym* get up there and wobble, wobble, almost fall, etc, and not only outscore your gym's girl, but win state. Or, your dd's level 6 teammate get out there on floor at State, do the routine of her life, just gorgeous, and get an 8.9, and the next girl from *that same gym* do a decent routine (good, but not great) and score a 9.8! And hey, when I see a 9.8 routine, I appreciate it for what it is, and applaud that gymnast because that is amazing. But even a lay person knows when a routine at club level is not a 9.8.

It's really hard to not believe that the leo matters, when for 6 years I have seen it over and over at all meets I've been to. Not just when it involves my dd or her team, but other girls out there competing as well. Especially when judges are also coaches or owners of gyms, and everyone knows them, etc. When the "power gym" of our state has a judge as a coach, its hard to not jump to that conclusion--we're only human. I'm sure that she has insights, too, that she can point out to the gymnasts in practice about what judges are looking for, and make sure they practice that way.

 

[flipper's fan]

It's hard not to believe that the leo matters. However, over the years I have seen girls leave our gym for the gyms with the right leos and they continue to place in the same range as they did when they wore our leos. Gymnasticsgrandkids has a point, that sometimes the gyms with the right leos are paying attention to details the others are not.

On the other hand, I've also seen the routines with three falls score a 9 and wonder how that can happen at -.5 each. But I think for the most part, judges are getting it right and the girls who are winning are deserving.

 

[emandelsmom]

We have seen some rough stuff. I will be completely honest. Daughters' team is multi-ethnic. Her coaches are the race of what is not usually seen. Certain judges here have made racist comments within hearing of certain people. So we are disliked as it goes against what the norm is. So do leo colors make a difference? yes, when you wear our colors you are known and not liked. When you wear the favored colors you are known and liked. So we go out of state to were things are more judged by skill and not what race you are. It is a shame that some people are still that a way. I would not have believed had I not seen it. Hopefully, one day these people will retire. Until, our state is doing what it is doing and not improving.

 

[Gymnasticgrandkids]

I am so very sorry to see a reply like emandelsmom's....I would absolutely hate to think that any meet we went to would be racist. And I hope to never go to one such as that and if we found that to be true at a meet we were at, I'd like to think that we would never, ever go back and support such a meet. On another note, several of the coaches in our gym are also judges so, of course, the gymnasts have an advantage of knowing what judges look for but that doesn't always help our girls...sure they know, but do they always pay attention, not! And as far as meets that we may have a judge judging...ask any of our girls, they hate it when one of the judges is ours because they know that that judge knows all of their flaws and they usually get hit harder because the gymnasts should know better than to make those certain mistakes. I guess it comes down to perspective. As I mentioned previously, we used to be on the other side so I've seen it from both perspectives now.

 

[marie83]

Not read all the replies but my gymnasts definately don't wear the right leotard. I mean, I know they aren't perfect, but really!!!
Last comp, my gymnast did a bar routine as nice as I've ever seen her do it. She had straight arms in her kip, a horizontal cast, straight arms in the bhc, then squat on catch, long hang kip with straight arms, pike on with straight legs and stuck the undershoot dismount. She scored well, but got the lowest score in her group 10.8, vs 11s. One of the girls in our group missed both of her kips, causing two 0.5 deductions. plus 1 fall (1 mark each), but still scored higher than my gymnast! Now that doesn't add up! She was from a club who produced a British Champion last year. The same gymnast did the most disgusting vault - arched on and off a handspring. My gymnast did a decent, not perfect handspring and scored less.
It shows when our gymnasts make national finals and score better than they do regionally (although they are lucky to make the national final in the first place!)
It also shows when one of our gymnasts moves to another club a couple of weeks before a competition, competes the routines we gave her but in a different leo and wins the comp! I'm not saying that she wouldn't have won with us, but I very much doubt it, since she came well down the rankings at her previous comp with us!

It really riles me if you hadn't guessed!

 

[jasminekayla]

Sadly, I have seen this quite often with our gym. My DD competes for a Y team. We practice 3 times a week and work hard just like every other team. When we attend Y meets I really dont see it because all the teams are Y's but when we compete in USAG meets with clubs I see a large decrease in our scores. I know we might not be as tight as others or complete our skills to perfection but holding against us because we are the Y team at the meet isnt fair. We are actually looking at not having the Y part mentioned in the team announcement just to see what would happen. Its sad that the gym you belong to is held against you in scores.

 

[shelovestoflip]

We have seen some rough stuff. I will be completely honest. Daughters' team is multi-ethnic. Her coaches are the race of what is not usually seen. Certain judges here have made racist comments within hearing of certain people. So we are disliked as it goes against what the norm is. So do leo colors make a difference? yes, when you wear our colors you are known and not liked. When you wear the favored colors you are known and liked. So we go out of state to were things are more judged by skill and not what race you are. It is a shame that some people are still that a way. I would not have believed had I not seen it. Hopefully, one day these people will retire. Until, our state is doing what it is doing and not improving.

Wow, that is just NUTS!! Don't know where you live, but I've got to say, that's not the case here. We've got girls of many ethnicities placing in the top 3 fairly consistently, so I'm happy knowing the judges are judging gymnastics not race. That being said, I also think the leo matters in that those wearing the top level gym are expected to do well but as many have pointed out, the top level gyms are in many cases attending to details some of the smaller gyms who practice less hours aren't always focused on. So, I guess it's a bit of both. But I'm so sorry for you, emandelsmom, because I would not be able to tolerate a situation like that!! Hope it gets better for your gym!

 

[IrenicMom]

I think it goes both ways. I've seen "big gym" girls get big scores that don't make sense, and I've seen "big gym" girls who get low scores that don't make sense. Some judges seem willing to give some credit where it isn't due based on the name, and some seem more apt to nitpick the heck out of gyms, and gymnasts, that they "expect better" from.

All a wash in the end, IMO. And further reason to put less emphasis on the actual score.