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JPC13

Proud Parent
Mar 25, 2022
459
Even the grades don’t account for anything , but my dd always has strong work ethic or making sure all assignments perfect , making grades perfect... This type of kids easily get exhausted.
I'm a professor at a top Ivy, so I see a lot of those kids. Generally, they're all wasting their time -- they could spend half as much time and the quality of their work would drop 1%. Efficiency matters. At some point I'll figure out how to convince them of this fact, and I will have succeeded as an educator.
 

RTT2

Proud Parent
Oct 9, 2015
883
I'm a professor at a top Ivy, so I see a lot of those kids. Generally, they're all wasting their time -- they could spend half as much time and the quality of their work would drop 1%. Efficiency matters. At some point I'll figure out how to convince them of this fact, and I will have succeeded as an educator.
Interesting. My 9th grade daughter seems to be on track with this. Her motto is, "Work smarter, not harder" and she manages to get almost all of her homework assignments done during the school day. Straight As so she's doing something right but has figured out a way to cut to the heart of the work without overthinking it and then manage all the gym hours. I sometimes worry that she's cutting corners since she's not up late after practice struggling with homework as I hear a lot of other kids are doing, but maybe she's just efficient!
 

JPC13

Proud Parent
Mar 25, 2022
459
Interesting. My 9th grade daughter seems to be on track with this. Her motto is, "Work smarter, not harder" and she manages to get almost all of her homework assignments done during the school day. Straight As so she's doing something right but has figured out a way to cut to the heart of the work without overthinking it and then manage all the gym hours. I sometimes worry that she's cutting corners since she's not up late after practice struggling with homework as I hear a lot of other kids are doing, but maybe she's just efficient!
I've experimented with this concept a lot, because wasting time really bothers me. Some years I'll book a room all day and then give my students an exam without a time limit. Most kids will stay a couple hours, with some sitting there for up to six hours. Other years I'll give them effectively the same exam but only give them 90 minutes to finish it.

With infinite time the exams look better in that they're neater and better written, but the scores are nearly identical. It's a total waste of time but they never believe me.
 

katrid11

Proud Parent
Sep 1, 2020
91
47
First of all 25hrs is alot for a L6. The top gyms around us do 18-20 hrs for L6 that are elite bound and 16-18 everyone else.

here are my thoughts:
1) talk to the coach about dropping down closer to 20 hrs a week. Your DD can do conditioning at home for 30 minutes on the day they skip if conditioning is a concern.
2) time to talk to teachers and DD about the homework and get a really good understanding of what is required, recommended, optional and what work is taking longer than it should.
3) figure out how your DD can be more efficient with HW "work smarter not harder" is our motto as well.

In our district, all of the teachers are more concerned with understanding IF the kid is taking too long on assignments. That student either needs additional instruction or there is another underlying issue to handle. At least here, our teachers are not assigning HW for the sake of it - but as a means to practice concepts and flesh out the problem areas.
 
Jun 18, 2022
74
49
My old one has 25 hours as well. She does well so far. Different kids handle things differently. My younger one told me it is satisfying to her and she likes to make her projects perfect, not just for grades. She like to do thing follow how she feels maybe because she is still younger , maybe just her natural . My old one differently, goal oriented. Wud do anything to get what she wants at the end. I guess it is just personality.
 

JBS

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Sep 3, 2005
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This is an interesting perspective. Do you vary an athlete's hours depending where they are on the learning curve?

No... not to the degree that I would like to. The general public can't seem to understand the concept when put on an individual. The decreased hours are always thought of as a negative when done to only 1 or 2 athletes.

We are considering a tapered hour schedule for the entire team though... something like the following (for upper level optionals)...

Summer: 20 - 22 hours
Fall: 18 - 20 hours
Season: 16 - 18 hours

Even a slight taper (like getting out early on Fridays for football games) means a ton to the athletes.

If an athlete is ready and peaking at the right time... then they definitely need the fewest hours during season. Using extra hours to constantly up-train is not really a good concept if you are looking to win.
 

Coach Kate

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Oct 13, 2021
240
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My wife was adamant that our daughter wouldn't go to school from the very beginning and she got so much crap from her family and friends ("what about YOUR life/dreams?!"), but she stuck to it and it was 100% the right decision.

If you have any homeschooling questions, feel free to hit me up when you're ready.
Thanks! We are so lucky to be part of a church with a very strong homeschooling community. Definitely makes it feel accessible.
 
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Aussie_coach

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Jan 4, 2008
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Even the grades don’t account for anything , but my dd always has strong work ethic or making sure all assignments perfect , making grades perfect , and making gymnastics perfect. This type of kids easily get exhausted.
Kids like this do need a parent to step in and say, enough. Put a limit on homework, max of 1 hour a day or something and that’s it! Communication with the school on the issue so they understand why will help.
 

Aussie_coach

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Jan 4, 2008
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I've experimented with this concept a lot, because wasting time really bothers me. Some years I'll book a room all day and then give my students an exam without a time limit. Most kids will stay a couple hours, with some sitting there for up to six hours. Other years I'll give them effectively the same exam but only give them 90 minutes to finish it.

With infinite time the exams look better in that they're neater and better written, but the scores are nearly identical. It's a total waste of time but they never believe me.
So true. It’s so often proven that the amount of time it takes us to do things depends on the amount of time we have.

Kids who stop activities to focus on school often don’t do any better in school (and often they do worse) than they did when they were doing the activities.
 

JPC13

Proud Parent
Mar 25, 2022
459
So true. It’s so often proven that the amount of time it takes us to do things depends on the amount of time we have.

Kids who stop activities to focus on school often don’t do any better in school (and often they do worse) than they did when they were doing the activities.
One of the guys who did his PhD with me had a bunch of papers looking at various things related to deadlines and individual/group performance. The findings were overwhelming that basically everyone always does better when given a limited timeline.
 

Happyfeet

Proud Parent
Mar 2, 2021
18
Great discussion everyone. I had some thoughts while reading:
1) I would talk to your child's teacher regarding what the homework expectations are. Where I live they are no more than 10 minutes a night per grade level from Gr 1- 8 (ie. original poster with a child in grade 5/6 would be 50-60 mins maximum).
2) It sounds like you have a naturally perfectionistic child. This is great...sometimes but not all the time. When you have a naturally perfectionistic child you need to teach them the concept of "good enough". They tend to think in "all or nothing" or "black and white". Teaching them to live in the "grey" is a very important skill as very rarely will people be perfect in life and even when they are it takes a great deal of time and stress. Ask your child to pick some assignments to do "good enough" and have her aim for 75-80% once in awhile. Make a plan with her such as tonight you aren't going to double check your answers or proof read for errors. Another strategy is today you are going to do your homework as fast as possible (like a race) it doesn't matter to me if it isn't perfect you are aiming for as quick as possible.
3) Help her learn to chose between assignments which are interesting and useful for the future vs those which are less important. For instance, when I was in elementary school the amount of time spent drawing pictures to accompany paragraphs or making elaborate title pages was far too much. Give her more praise for being efficient and taking a lower mark than you do when she gets high grades. If she enjoys doing things perfectly save these for weekends or non-gym nights. Save the high grades for high school when she is applying for university. This helps her learn prioritizing which is also a good life skill to have
4) The above point may need some help from child's teacher as well. Let them know you are trying to teach your child to not be so particular over all the small details. Tell your child's teacher you would prefer they not be rewarded with higher marks for going above and beyond (ie. if the assignment asks for a paragraph writing two pages should not earn them a higher mark). Sometimes teachers will overly praise students or give higher marks for more diligence or working hard on "busy work". For instance, neater printing (I mean just get the answer on the page), writing in full sentences vs point form, making highly detailed and artistic title pages etc. If needed you can also help your child "trim" their homework once in awhile. For instance they have 40 math questions to do but they seem to understand the concept and have enough practice after 20- just do the ones with odd numbers and show the teacher you understand the concept doesn't hurt once in awhile.
4) Pick a bed time and stick to it (not midnight). I was a competitive figure skater and solid student. The amount of after skating, pre-bed 9:30-10pm at night meltdowns led to the rule no homework after 9pm. At 9 you get ready for bed. If you still have homework you set your alarm an hour early and do it then. Homework which takes 20mins when rested can take hours when exhausted. This is something I carried with me all through university my roommates were always shocked I never pulled an all nighter studying although I did have some 7am study starts before a morning exam. I always just told people I think better when I'm not tired.
5) Also, if you can work with the teacher and your child on a plan ahead strategy. To do more homework on the weekend when there is more time this can be effective too. Any large assignments get done on the weekend even if they aren't due until Thursday.

For what it's worth these strategies are those which I would use for a perfectionistic, smart, anxious tending child not one who has legitimate learning needs or struggles with school.
 

Lucia

Proud Parent
Fan
Jun 6, 2019
121
My wife was adamant that our daughter wouldn't go to school from the very beginning and she got so much crap from her family and friends ("what about YOUR life/dreams?!"), but she stuck to it and it was 100% the right decision.

If you have any homeschooling questions, feel free to hit me up when y

Thanks! We are so lucky to be part of a church with a very strong homeschooling community. Definitely makes it feel accessible.
Congrats Coach Kate and yay for you! We have homeschooled from the beginning, so it had nothing to do with gym, but now that my daughter is at 16 hours I love the flexibility of not being up late with school work. She works hard, but we can linger over family read alouds, or a project, or just protect unstructured time. My husband and I are lucky to have careers with some schedule flexibility, so I know not everyone can do what we do. But I work in pediatrics and completely agree that more is not better and is often detrimental.
 
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JPC13

Proud Parent
Mar 25, 2022
459
Congrats Coach Kate and yay for you! We have homeschooled from the beginning, so it had nothing to do with gym, but now that my daughter is at 16 hours I love the flexibility of not being up late with school work. She works hard, but we can linger over family read alouds, or a project, or just protect unstructured time. My husband and I are lucky to have careers with some schedule flexibility, so I know not everyone can do what we do. But I work in pediatrics and completely agree that more is not better and is often detrimental.
Yes. My daughter is currently half way through a five hour practice (really an hour of specialized up training followed by four hours of team practice) and there's no way that would be feasible after being at school the entire day. Today before practice she rested, ate a bunch, did some reading and projects with my wife, and played switch.

I don't know how kids do the high hours after school. It seems crazy.
 

skschlag

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Jul 19, 2011
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I don't know how kids do the high hours after school. It seems crazy.

It is doable. It takes some flexibility and creativity. My son did public school, gym, and is now a D1 gymnast. He worked with the school and vice versa to figure out how to best make it work. He developed some amazing skills that are really paying off for him in college.

My son did football games, dances, parties, etc.
 

mom2newgymnast

Proud Parent
Jul 8, 2014
1,308
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Yes. My daughter is currently half way through a five hour practice (really an hour of specialized up training followed by four hours of team practice) and there's no way that would be feasible after being at school the entire day. Today before practice she rested, ate a bunch, did some reading and projects with my wife, and played switch.

I don't know how kids do the high hours after school. It seems crazy.
I guess it's all about what you are used to? My daughter (and many of her teammates) does it and it just seems normal to her. I mean yes it's a lot of long days and sometimes when I stop and think about it, I question how she sustains it.. but she has done it for years and it works for her. I pick her up at the bus stop and she goes straight to 5 hour practices and gets home around 8:45pm. I know everyone is different, and I respect everyone doing what works for their family. But for her, she is unwilling to give up public school for a sport. Her brothers both went to the high school she is at now and she has dreamed of going to this school since she was much younger. Her practices are longer than many of her friends, but honestly most of them are involved in high school sports, band, etc, so she doesn't feel like she is missing out on relaxing or hanging out. All of her friends are busy after school. She has the entire weekend off, has sleepovers, skips practice for football games, goes to school dances, hangs out with friends, etc. She has good time management skills and is happy and thriving at school and at the gym.
 

JPC13

Proud Parent
Mar 25, 2022
459
I guess it's all about what you are used to? My daughter (and many of her teammates) does it and it just seems normal to her. I mean yes it's a lot of long days and sometimes when I stop and think about it, I question how she sustains it.. but she has done it for years and it works for her. I pick her up at the bus stop and she goes straight to 5 hour practices and gets home around 8:45pm. I know everyone is different, and I respect everyone doing what works for their family. But for her, she is unwilling to give up public school for a sport. Her brothers both went to the high school she is at now and she has dreamed of going to this school since she was much younger. Her practices are longer than many of her friends, but honestly most of them are involved in high school sports, band, etc, so she doesn't feel like she is missing out on relaxing or hanging out. All of her friends are busy after school. She has the entire weekend off, has sleepovers, skips practice for football games, goes to school dances, hangs out with friends, etc. She has good time management skills and is happy and thriving at school and at the gym.
For sure. Clearly it works for a lot of people -- as far as I know my daughter is the only homeschooled kid among any of the 4-10s on her team, and the upper optional girls are doing even more hours than she is and seem happy.
 
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Tmacs

Proud Parent
Feb 19, 2019
231
Great discussion everyone. I had some thoughts while reading:
1) I would talk to your child's teacher regarding what the homework expectations are. Where I live they are no more than 10 minutes a night per grade level from Gr 1- 8 (ie. original poster with a child in grade 5/6 would be 50-60 mins maximum).
2) It sounds like you have a naturally perfectionistic child. This is great...sometimes but not all the time. When you have a naturally perfectionistic child you need to teach them the concept of "good enough". They tend to think in "all or nothing" or "black and white". Teaching them to live in the "grey" is a very important skill as very rarely will people be perfect in life and even when they are it takes a great deal of time and stress. Ask your child to pick some assignments to do "good enough" and have her aim for 75-80% once in awhile. Make a plan with her such as tonight you aren't going to double check your answers or proof read for errors. Another strategy is today you are going to do your homework as fast as possible (like a race) it doesn't matter to me if it isn't perfect you are aiming for as quick as possible.
3) Help her learn to chose between assignments which are interesting and useful for the future vs those which are less important. For instance, when I was in elementary school the amount of time spent drawing pictures to accompany paragraphs or making elaborate title pages was far too much. Give her more praise for being efficient and taking a lower mark than you do when she gets high grades. If she enjoys doing things perfectly save these for weekends or non-gym nights. Save the high grades for high school when she is applying for university. This helps her learn prioritizing which is also a good life skill to have
4) The above point may need some help from child's teacher as well. Let them know you are trying to teach your child to not be so particular over all the small details. Tell your child's teacher you would prefer they not be rewarded with higher marks for going above and beyond (ie. if the assignment asks for a paragraph writing two pages should not earn them a higher mark). Sometimes teachers will overly praise students or give higher marks for more diligence or working hard on "busy work". For instance, neater printing (I mean just get the answer on the page), writing in full sentences vs point form, making highly detailed and artistic title pages etc. If needed you can also help your child "trim" their homework once in awhile. For instance they have 40 math questions to do but they seem to understand the concept and have enough practice after 20- just do the ones with odd numbers and show the teacher you understand the concept doesn't hurt once in awhile.
4) Pick a bed time and stick to it (not midnight). I was a competitive figure skater and solid student. The amount of after skating, pre-bed 9:30-10pm at night meltdowns led to the rule no homework after 9pm. At 9 you get ready for bed. If you still have homework you set your alarm an hour early and do it then. Homework which takes 20mins when rested can take hours when exhausted. This is something I carried with me all through university my roommates were always shocked I never pulled an all nighter studying although I did have some 7am study starts before a morning exam. I always just told people I think better when I'm not tired.
5) Also, if you can work with the teacher and your child on a plan ahead strategy. To do more homework on the weekend when there is more time this can be effective too. Any large assignments get done on the weekend even if they aren't due until Thursday.

For what it's worth these strategies are those which I would use for a perfectionistic, smart, anxious tending child not one who has legitimate learning needs or struggles with school.
These are great!!
 
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Tmacs

Proud Parent
Feb 19, 2019
231
Yes. My daughter is currently half way through a five hour practice (really an hour of specialized up training followed by four hours of team practice) and there's no way that would be feasible after being at school the entire day. Today before practice she rested, ate a bunch, did some reading and projects with my wife, and played switch.

I don't know how kids do the high hours after school. It seems crazy.
My daughter goes to a private school but we were able to work it out thst she misses her last class 3x a week and so she can go to the early group and finish at 7pm. Such a difference than finishing at 8! And she opted (I forced) her not to do the extra optional day so she only practices 18 hours a week while the rest of her group does 22. She's not behind at all.
 
Jun 18, 2022
74
49
Why Some gymnasts can do much better with less hours ?

Why Elite program training takes way a lot more hours than regular JO program, like 35 hours/ week.

And It also seems just conflict with general concepts: more practice better results
 

Carly

Proud Parent
Jan 3, 2016
318
Why Some gymnasts can do much better with less hours ?

Why Elite program training takes way a lot more hours than regular JO program, like 35 hours/ week.

And It also seems just conflict with general concepts: more practice better results
Gyms have all different methods for practice and coaching, so gymnasts can do better with less hours depending on how they practice. They may have less waiting around between turns for example. Also, some gymnasts pick up skills a lot faster than others so they may not need as many hours.

More practice does not necessarily mean better results. These kids bodies need to rest so that they can perform at their best. So those with overworked and tired bodies could be performing worse.