WAG Tsuk versus Yurchenko

[hearts_and_stars]

Hi, all. This question is for the coaches and more experienced parents out there.

DD is competing L8 this season and is training both the Tsuk and Yurchenko. Aside from the different entry, what are the main differences between the two vaults? Is one more advanced than the other? Is it coach's preference as to which they train? What usually informs the decision of the coach to train one or the other?

(The only reason I'm asking is because we have a fairly sizable L8 team and some girls are training only Tsuks, some are training only Yurchenkos, and some, like DD, are working both. The parents of the first two groups wonder among themselves why their DD is only given the option of one vault while others are working both. None of the kids wants to ask the vault coach because his usual response is 'focus on yourself and not what others are doing,' so I thought I'd ask here and see what I could learn).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

most kids will never do more than a Tsuk. other kids train both so that they have the Tsuk to compete until their Yurchenko is ready and safe. and sometimes Yurchenkos go temperamental at meets so they fall back on that Tsuk.

it's biology. can't change it. therefore, the coach is right. the parents should stop wondering. lol

 

[hawaii_gymnast]

A kid can ask a question without worrying about others. Ask how they choose which vault everyone does or why the specific vault was chosen for them. Make it a generic question about vault not "why does Suzie get to do a yurechenko but I have to do tsuks only."

 

[Aero]

As dunno stated above, it's really good to have a backup vault that still satisfies requirements. However, the coach may be teaching her both vaults to see which one she seems to take to better. Each type of vault entry has a specific technique, and some gymnasts are very good at certain ones, but not others. It's good to start teaching multiple types, and then after a while focus on the one the gymnast does best.
As for why the coach has some girls just training one type of vault, he probably already knows what style they'd be good at, and has made his decision based on what he's seen in practice over the years.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

sounds like a smart coach.

 

[hearts_and_stars]

Thanks for all the replies!

the parents should stop wondering. lol
This is why I came here instead of bothering the coach--DD is perfectly happy so I see no reason to waste the precious few minutes the coach DOES have for parents (I'd rather use that time if DD was struggling or had other issues.

I guess for a lot of parents they feel their kid is missing out because they're only learning one type of vault, even though their kid seems completely unbothered by it.

 

[duyetanh]

Thanks for all the replies!

the parents should stop wondering. lol
This is why I came here instead of bothering the coach--DD is perfectly happy so I see no reason to waste the precious few minutes the coach DOES have for parents (I'd rather use that time if DD was struggling or had other issues.

I guess for a lot of parents they feel their kid is missing out because they're only learning one type of vault, even though their kid seems completely unbothered by it.

And therein is the key sentence....their kid is unbothered....so the parents need to remember who is doing the vaulting. If my kid was in this situation and was bothered, I would encourage her to skip so she could get peace of mind.

 

[twinmomma]

And therein is the key sentence....their kid is unbothered....so the parents need to remember who is doing the vaulting. If my kid was in this situation and was bothered, I would encourage her to skip so she could get peace of mind.

I don't understand why we end up back here every so often. In every other sport my kids have participated in, there has been regular communication with coaches about what and WHY my kids are doing xyz. For example, my son's coach has him doing drills at catcher to work on certain skills. The other kids on the team aren't working this. I don't care about that. I do care about knowing what my kid needs to work on so I can support him at home when he asks questions or seeks guidance on what to focus on and what not. Also, I want to be able to support the coach and make sure I don't contradict him by saying things like "don't worry it will happen" if he's saying "I need him focusing more on this detail." Only in gymnastics does it seem like coaches expect parents to be completely hands off and not care what their kid is working on, struggling with, or needing to focus more on. My daughter's coach will tell me what she did, what she is struggling with, etc... NOT because I ask, but because it's appropriate to communicate with the child's parents how the child is progressing.

 

[Gymmommy71]

My kid only works/does Yurchenkos. Multiple coaches who have worked w/ her over the years have told her she is clearly much better at the Yurchenko entry style so it's not worth wasting the time to learn a Tsuk flip vault - better to just spend the time perfecting her yurchenko.

I am totally fine with this - maybe those parents who are upset that their kid is only working one style of vault are worried about the Olympics and Worlds where you need to do two different style vaults for event finals - haha!

 

[duyetanh]

I don't understand why we end up back here every so often. In every other sport my kids have participated in, there has been regular communication with coaches about what and WHY my kids are doing xyz. For example, my son's coach has him doing drills at catcher to work on certain skills. The other kids on the team aren't working this. I don't care about that. I do care about knowing what my kid needs to work on so I can support him at home when he asks questions or seeks guidance on what to focus on and what not. Also, I want to be able to support the coach and make sure I don't contradict him by saying things like "don't worry it will happen" if he's saying "I need him focusing more on this detail." Only in gymnastics does it seem like coaches expect parents to be completely hands off and not care what their kid is working on, struggling with, or needing to focus more on. My daughter's coach will tell me what she did, what she is struggling with, etc... NOT because I ask, but because it's appropriate to communicate with the child's parents how the child is progressing.

I understand what you are saying, and I think it all makes sense...but if my child was not bothered by it, I would be fine with it also.

 

[Aussie_coach]

A Yurchenko is harder for gymnasts to learn at first as they must do a lot of drilling in order to get the correct placement of the feet on the board and the hands on the table when they are going into it backwards, while a Tsukahara only required the, to get those hands on. In the early stages of learner Yurchenko is more dangerous as the kids are diving backwards blind towards the table.

However, yurchenko vaults are actually easier once the gymnast progresses as the round off and flic will generate more power than just the run. Most female gymnasts will be better able to take a yurchenko vault further than a tsuk as they progress towards pikes, layouts and twisting vaults.

Tsukahara vaults usually have a slightly higher start value at the international level as it is slightly harder to generate the power needed for these advanced vaults.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I'm a parent, not a coach. Not even a former athlete at any level.

I am not qualified to speak specifically to any sport. Be it soccer, football or gymnastics. I learn from many places, here being just one and make sure it gels with my beliefs. I get my information and make a decision to trust my daughter's coaches. Are there times I question it? Yep but ultimately it is not to change the what is being coached. I might change coaches (gym) though.

My kid is drilling tsuks. Lots of nice info here. And if her coach thinks tsuks are the way to go for her. I trust them so tsuks it is. She is 2 levels away from competing a tusk or yurchenko, a lot can change.

JMO, Bottom line, trust the coach and their process. If it is not working for you, its not changing the skill but the coach that should be considered.

 

[flippingtogether]

What I've noticed at our gym - and what our DD has shared with us at home - head coach has watched all the current L8 girls over the past year+ with vault in mind - and she decided at the end of L7 season which girl would do better with which vault, and thus some train tsuks, some train yurechenkos. For this group of 1st year L8s, they only work on the one that the head coach picked for each individually. They are right now trying to solidly get through this (super tricky, esp. when it comes to vault) year and transition to L8. Head coach has indicated to the girls they will learn more vaults later on....but vault is particularly scary at L8 so our team has them all focus on whichever one vault works best for them.

As an aside, I did peek to see if tsuks work w/ a 10.0 start value at L9 and L10 - and it looks like a pike works for 9, and a layout works for 10. So as @dunno states above, I can totally see how a gymnast can successfully get through L10 of JO gymnastics just working the tsuk. (and I can tell by my DD most of these girls need A LOT of time and work on this vault to get it right! )

 

[Mish]

I don't understand why we end up back here every so often. In every other sport my kids have participated in, there has been regular communication with coaches about what and WHY my kids are doing xyz. For example, my son's coach has him doing drills at catcher to work on certain skills. The other kids on the team aren't working this. I don't care about that. I do care about knowing what my kid needs to work on so I can support him at home when he asks questions or seeks guidance on what to focus on and what not. Also, I want to be able to support the coach and make sure I don't contradict him by saying things like "don't worry it will happen" if he's saying "I need him focusing more on this detail." Only in gymnastics does it seem like coaches expect parents to be completely hands off and not care what their kid is working on, struggling with, or needing to focus more on. My daughter's coach will tell me what she did, what she is struggling with, etc... NOT because I ask, but because it's appropriate to communicate with the child's parents how the child is progressing.

I wish there was an option to 'love' this!!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't understand why we end up back here every so often. In every other sport my kids have participated in, there has been regular communication with coaches about what and WHY my kids are doing xyz. For example, my son's coach has him doing drills at catcher to work on certain skills. The other kids on the team aren't working this. I don't care about that. I do care about knowing what my kid needs to work on so I can support him at home when he asks questions or seeks guidance on what to focus on and what not. Also, I want to be able to support the coach and make sure I don't contradict him by saying things like "don't worry it will happen" if he's saying "I need him focusing more on this detail." Only in gymnastics does it seem like coaches expect parents to be completely hands off and not care what their kid is working on, struggling with, or needing to focus more on. My daughter's coach will tell me what she did, what she is struggling with, etc... NOT because I ask, but because it's appropriate to communicate with the child's parents how the child is progressing.

those are NOT sports where a coaches decision has to do with life and limb. but i understand what you're saying.

 

[OzZee]

I'm a parent, not a coach. Not even a former athlete at any level.

I am not qualified to speak specifically to any sport. Be it soccer, football or gymnastics. I learn from many places, here being just one and make sure it gels with my beliefs. I get my information and make a decision to trust my daughter's coaches. Are there times I question it? Yep but ultimately it is not to change the what is being coached. I might change coaches (gym) though.

My kid is drilling tsuks. Lots of nice info here. And if her coach thinks tsuks are the way to go for her. I trust them so tsuks it is. She is 2 levels away from competing a tusk or yurchenko, a lot can change.

JMO, Bottom line, trust the coach and their process. If it is not working for you, its not changing the skill but the coach that should be considered.

But the OP never said she didn't trust the coaches or that it wasn't working!

Her daughter and team mates have started training these vaults.

Natural curiosity as to the differences between them and why they are training different vaults.
Interesting question and interesting answers from those that answered that question.

This is a place with a lot of very knowledgeable people who can answer the questions curious people wonder (without bothering their coaches and seeming like they are complaining).

Responses to questions of just trust the coach are not helpful, useful or interesting.

OP I found this interesting and I don't even have a kid doing wag anymore.
But I do now know a lot more about higher level vaults.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

This is a place with a lot of very knowledgeable people who can answer the questions curious people wonder (without bothering their coaches and seeming like they are complaining)

Yes that is why I read.

Responses to questions of just trust the coach are not helpful, useful or interesting.

And as threads wander sometimes responses are to other parts of the thread or even to clarify something along the way. And what is not helpful, useful or interesting, might be to someone else.

We are all free to to post. And free to ignore what we don't find valuable.

Your most is also not helpful, useful or interesting to me. So moving on.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

( without bothering their coaches and seeming like they are complaining).
.

To this part that is relevant to this thread and many others.

Just ask. As in if something is happening at the gym. Where parents are wondering to the point of chatting among themselves as to why something is being done. The ogical thing is to ask the coaches in that gym.

It can be done without appearing to be complaining. Of course how to best approach the coach also depends on the coach/gym. With our coach I find email works well. I have also learned when the better times to chat are vs when the bad times are.

 

[Ali'sMom]

JMO, Bottom line, trust the coach and their process. If it is not working for you, its not changing the skill but the coach that should be considered.

I don't know about the vaults, but as far as "trust the coaches", "if my child isn't bothered by this I wouldn't ask", "the parents who are wondering should trust the coaches", etc, I have story about a mom who trusted the coaches, and didn't question (other than venting and complaining to all the other moms, but that's a different story).
In Level 4, we got talking about the kip. Glide vs. pike. She said "But they can't do a pike". I said "Yes they can" (I learned that here - LOL!)
Her gymmie had asked the coach about doing a pike kip and was told no. Mom told me that gymmie had a much stronger pike than glide, so why wasn't she doing it?
My answer "Talk to the coach and ask". (for the record, I'm always an "ask" person with the coach, never a "tell" person).
She did. Coach said "fine, I'll have her show me the pike and see if it's good enough". Turns out her pike kip was great! very tight, straight. Where her glide looked like her legs flailed as she glided. Coach said "Well, why didn't she ever tell me she could pike?"

To me, that wouldn't have been enough to change coaches or gym, just a simple questioning worked.

And sometimes, moms of gymnasts who never were gymnasts do get curious about the whole bloody thing. Why Suzie and Janie are doing two different things. As long as you're not trying to TELL the coach that your Janie should definitely be doing what Suzie is doing. Accept the answer to your curiosity and move on.

 

[BachFlyer]

I don't understand why we end up back here every so often. In every other sport my kids have participated in, there has been regular communication with coaches about what and WHY my kids are doing xyz. For example, my son's coach has him doing drills at catcher to work on certain skills. The other kids on the team aren't working this. I don't care about that. I do care about knowing what my kid needs to work on so I can support him at home when he asks questions or seeks guidance on what to focus on and what not. Also, I want to be able to support the coach and make sure I don't contradict him by saying things like "don't worry it will happen" if he's saying "I need him focusing more on this detail." Only in gymnastics does it seem like coaches expect parents to be completely hands off and not care what their kid is working on, struggling with, or needing to focus more on. .

Agreed. Enough. We're allowed to be curious.

Also, trust in the coaches (or anything) for both adult and child is sometimes much easier with information. It is the gym world that decided somehow that "trust" is equivalent to "blind trust". Not everyone wants the details, and that's cool. Some people, some GYMNASTS, do. So what?